Lockup: Raw - Killers Among Us   View more episodes

Aired at 07:00 PM on Friday, Nov 05, 2010 (11/5/2010)      View all transcripts from this day


00:00:00>> Kill or be killed.
00:00:01>> Human beings are the most dangerous animal on earth.
00:00:07>> He ran up the stairs, i fired.
00:00:12>> [ Bleep ] it happens.
00:00:21>> One of the most intense things our "lockup" crews encount are when they go inside a maximum security prison is conducting interviews with murders, sitting five, six feet away from a very violent offender.
00:00:39But more often than not, they leave those conversations feeling like they talked to somebody that's just a normal, every day guy.
00:00:44>> When our crew went behind the 40-foot walls of indiana state prison, they had ample opportunity to meet killers among the 2,000 inmates incarcerated there.
00:00:54>> The number one charge at this facility is murder.
00:00:57And approximately 70% of the offenders housed here are housed here for taking the life of another human being.
00:01:09>> One of those offenders is jocco bailey.
00:01:11At age 16, he received a 40-year sentence for murder.
00:01:13>> I was selling marijuana.
00:01:13Two older guys.
00:01:17Wanted to buy some weed.
00:01:19When they seen I was young, they figured they could take the weed.
00:01:22They figured wrong.
00:01:24Because I was carrying a weapon.
00:01:26It was a gunfight.
00:01:28One of the guys ended up dead, the other ended up wounded.
00:01:34And I ended up in prison, to my regret and my family's regret and the person that's dead's regret.
00:01:44>> When we met him, bailey had been in prison at indiana state for 17 years and spent 11 of them confined to a 23-hour per day lockdown cell in administration segregation.
00:01:56>> A person ends up in segregation.
00:02:03The people that want to take and make money by trafficking.
00:02:05The troublemakers.
00:02:08>> Bailey seemed more interested in creature comforts than violence.
00:02:12>> This is my la-z-boy.
00:02:14My chair.
00:02:17Sitting in the cell for years and years and years will mess your back up.
00:02:24Because these steel beds.
00:02:26Through the years, people jump up and down on them, so they make them uneven.
00:02:28It will give you a back problem for the rest of your life.
00:02:33That's it.
00:02:33This is my home.
00:02:35This is my -- this is where i live.
00:02:44>> Bailey is also allowed out of his cell once a day for an hour of recreation in an enclosed yard.
00:02:50>> Why is it important to keep someone like this segregated?
00:02:53He seems to be a sociable kind of guy.
00:02:56>> Sure.
00:02:57A lot of sociopaths are.
00:02:58A lot of jocco's problems are substance abuse-related.
00:03:03And that leads to other problems, for instance, violence in the institution.
00:03:08That's why he is where he is.
00:03:10It isn't like he hasn't been in the open population, he has been, but he hasn't been successful.
00:03:17>> I stabbed offenders for snitching.
00:03:21I've had illicit drug activity, I've organized gang group demonstrations.
00:03:25I've been incorrigible and been an all-around troublemaker for most of my years here at the prison.
00:03:36>> But bailey says there's a practical side to his behavior.
00:03:42>> Prison is a delicate balance.
00:03:46Because some guys here are never going home.
00:03:49And for those of us who are, if we lose our edge one bit, then like wolves, your own could turn on you.
00:03:57Being in this environment, I've had to become and to be a predator in order to avoid being prey.
00:04:07>> Finding appropriate housing for convicted killers who have continued their violent ways behind bars is always a challenge.
00:04:16A fact dramatically illustrated during our visit to kern valley state prison in california.
00:04:22>> Work, work, work, you know.
00:04:24>> When we met james randall, he was working his prison job, helping officers serve food to his fellow inmates.
00:04:32When we sat down to talk in his cell, randall seemed to only have one concern.
00:04:40How his shaved head looked on camera.
00:04:42>> There's no lint on my head or nothing?
00:04:44>> No, you look fine.
00:04:45>> No, I'm cool.
00:04:47I got a gang out of it.
00:04:52I'm going to put baby oil on it and be shining in the morning.
00:04:55>> When you interview people in prison, you know they are in there for a good reason.
00:05:00When you meet them, sometimes they're very likable.
00:05:01They might even be somebody you think you could be friends with.
00:05:03Sometimes you end up hearing a jaw-dropping story.
00:05:06The day we met james randall, we heard a jaw-dropping story.
00:05:10>> Originally I came to jail FEBRUARY 21st, 1981, CONVICTED In san bernardino county for murder/robbery.
00:05:18>> Given a sentence of 34 years to life, randall was 18 at the time of his conviction.
00:05:29But his rap sheet started much earlier.
00:05:31>> I have been gang banging since I was 9 years old.
00:05:32Coming from an impoverished neighborhood, southern california.
00:05:35My mother and father tried to move to pamona to establish a better life for us.
00:05:40By the time we moved to pamona, it's mostly a middle to upper class neighborhood.
00:05:43Being bit by the gang bug, we just exported the gang life out there.
00:05:47>> His gang activity led to the incarceration of the youth authority and soon after, prison.
00:05:56There, he joined a militant gang called the black guerrilla family.
00:06:00>> Ended up spending 15 years in solitary confinement for my prison activities and conduct.
00:06:07Tried to get back into the main line, but it was kind of hard after facing walls for 15 years and handcuffs everywhere i went, I didn't adjust too well.
00:06:13I became more assaultive, more combative, more violent.
00:06:17>> After 25 years of incarceration, randall had plenty of violent episodes to share.
00:06:27>> I had threw a bomb in an inmate's cell and blew his toilet off the wall and blew a patch of his leg off.
00:06:32An officer came to my door.
00:06:33I made a zip gun out of magazines and I shot him in the face.
00:06:38>> The story unfolds about why he's there, what he's done in prison can send chills up your spine.
00:06:43Then it occurs to you, I'm sitting right in front of this guy.
00:06:47Anything could happen to me.
00:06:49>> Most of randall's violence was directed at his cellmates.
00:06:53>> I don't have a problem taking a celly but what I have a problem with is crackheads.
00:06:57And people that don't know how to jail.
00:06:59People who like exposing themselves to female staff.
00:07:02I have a mother and sister.
00:07:03I don't play that.
00:07:09>> One celly in particular sent randall into a rage.
00:07:19>> He raped and cut these females up and cut their chests.
00:07:20He's bragging about what he did.
00:07:21I said you really did that?
00:07:22What got me is when he blew a 9-year-old girl's head off.
00:07:26And they put him in the cell.
00:07:31I said, he really did that?
00:07:32He started laughing.
00:07:33What I did was said I'm going to treat you like you did those women.
00:07:37I stuck my hand up his ass to my forearm and bashed his head and made him drink out that toilet.
00:07:40And took the towel and strangled him.
00:07:43When they opened the door, i tried to throw him off the tier.
00:07:47They said, that's it, you can't have no more cellies, man.
00:07:51>> Randall eventually quit his gang and his behavior improved after correctional officials said despite his violent record, he might one day be released.
00:08:00>> After all these years, i didn't give that no thought.
00:08:02I didn't care.
00:08:02I was playing tag with satan.
00:08:03I didn't care.
00:08:05Now, I look back on it and think, wow, they are seriously considering letting me go.
00:08:09I haven't had a write-up in three years.
00:08:13That's like a dope fiend going through withdrawal.
00:08:17>> For somebody that led such a violent past, it was interesting to find what james randall did in his spare time.
00:08:24He made cards, cute little cards, like for kids.
00:08:28>> Draw like mickey mouses, i love you, happy birthday.
00:08:34It's like therapy for me.
00:08:35Instead of acting out, I draw.
00:08:37>> Though randall has attempted to put violence behind him, he knows his past can haunt him, in prison or out.
00:08:46>> In my mind, coming from the dark side, as I like to call it, you're out but you're never out.
00:08:52If I walk up and I'm in like sears or one of the department stores, say I have my son or daughter or my wife with me and some gang members that have heard of me see me, I might be dead right there along with my wife and kids.
00:09:05Once you're in, you're never out.
00:09:09Even when you're dead, it's going to always be there, no matter what I do.
00:09:16 raw" -- >> I was 16 and I shot somebody.
00:09:21>> Me being 15, one side of me wanted to shoot at somebody.
00:09:25>> When I was 12 years old, i killed some guy who tried to kill my brother.
00:09:30>> Teens who kill and one father's determination to end the cycle.
00:09:34>> This is our son, evan.
00:09:36Tomorrow, he would have been 10 years old.
00:09:39He's not here to celebrate it.
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00:12:46>>> One of the more unique facilities ever profiled on "lockup" is the stark youth correctional facility in southern california.
00:12:57Referred to as wards, rather than inmates, the young men incarcerated here were all convicted as juveniles for serious crimes.
00:13:03They transfer to stark when they turn 18 and, depending on their sentence, will remain here until age 21 or 25.
00:13:11We met several wards convicted of murder.
00:13:16They asked that we not use their last names.
00:13:20>> When I was like 12 years old, I killed a guy who tried to kill my brother.
00:13:26It was gang related.
00:13:27I retaliated and have been here ever since.
00:13:30>> You shot him?
00:13:31>> No, we beat him to death with tire irons, lumber jacks, stuff like that.
00:13:36>> The guy walked through the gate.
00:13:39I drew down on him with a k-22.
00:13:46We told him why was he selling dope over here?
00:13:49We told him not to sell dope in this particular area.
00:13:51He looked at me and tried to get the gun out of my hand.
00:13:53He ran up the stairs.
00:13:53I fired.
00:13:55He got shot seven times.
00:13:56And I killed him.
00:13:57Me being 15, it excited me to shoot at somebody.
00:14:01Because it made other people look at me and say, see that guy, that's a cool guy there.
00:14:08It made me proud.
00:14:09>> What made you proud?
00:14:11>> Them knowing I would kill somebody and not even worry about it or not worry about getting caught.
00:14:18>> I was 16 and I shot somebody.
00:14:19It was the first day of the semester and I was by myself and, you know, there was one of my rivals with a bunch of his home boys, 15 or 20 of them.
00:14:34I was surrounded by everybody, something was going to happen to me.
00:14:37I was genuinely scared.
00:14:39I was worried for my own life.
00:14:43My reaction was to pull out my gun.
00:14:47In the middle of the confrontation, I shot him.
00:14:50The gun discharged while I was running.
00:14:55Another innocent bystander was shot in the process.
00:14:57Human beings are the most dangerous animal on earth.
00:15:00When it comes down to what I was doing, it was insane.
00:15:08>> This is our son, evan.
00:15:10Tomorrow, he would have been 10 years old.
00:15:14He's not here to celebrate it.
00:15:16>> On our second day of shooting at stark, some of the wards were getting a tough lesson on the consequences of violence.
00:15:25>> I'm leading prayer in the church as a licensed minister.
00:15:28I get a phone call that says you need to come to the park because there's been a shooting that involved your family.
00:15:32We need you to come right now.
00:15:34>> The father of evan foster told the group how a bullet found his son at a neighborhood park.
00:15:40>> My wife took him to sign him up for basketball, to pick up a trophy.
00:15:45The trophy's not there.
00:15:46They go to leave and she sees some guys in the parking lot.
00:15:50And basically, the guys came and they were seeking to kill somebody.
00:15:57They actually told the authorities later, they came to kill somebody.
00:16:02Since there was two rival gang situations, they saw a red car and they decided they were going to kill that person.
00:16:08They approach him, pull out an assault weapon and he takes off running.
00:16:13Unfortunately, he runs toward our vehicle.
00:16:17My wife sees all this when she's putting the kids in the car.
00:16:19She's trying her best not to frighten them.
00:16:22So she just floors it.
00:16:25Puts it in reverse and tries to get out as fast as she can.
00:16:29She's talking to evan saying I'm sorry I didn't get your trophy.
00:16:33He's saying, that's all right, mom, I -- then he stops talking.
00:16:36She took him in her arms and stroked his head.
00:16:39One eye was hanging out like a slinky.
00:16:41You could see the veins and everything.
00:16:43The eye was hanging out.
00:16:45He got destroyed on this side of the face and had a big gash in his forehead.
00:16:51She stroked his head, she said and she told him, I'm sorry that I didn't get you out of here.
00:16:56These are the kind of things we have to live with.
00:17:00>> For foster, sharing the story of his son's death helps relieve the pain.
00:17:04He spoke to the wards for more than an hour.
00:17:08>> I'll keep trying until there's no breath left in me.
00:17:15Because the cycle needs to stop.
00:17:18If you don't begin to look at the cycle and touch the cycle, try to impact it, it just continues to spiral.
00:17:22>> One of the gang bangers involved in shooting evan had once been incarcerated at stark.
00:17:28One of his former dorm mates also convicted of murder, raised his hand to speak to foster.
00:17:34>> On behalf of all of us, i want to apologize.
00:17:37You know what I mean, for the mentality that we grew up with, the state of mind that we're in and the decisions that we make to make that kind of action or take that kind of action towards other human beings.
00:17:52On behalf of the men that are incarcerated, I want to apologize for that.
00:17:55Thank you for sharing that with us.
00:17:59>> My reaction was sincere appreciation that he could be that sensitive or that charitable and take, in an odd sort of way, ownership or some responsibility for the maladaptive actions that this other person did.
00:18:20My son evan was about love.
00:18:23He wrote a campaign speech, a class assignment, one of his last class assignments.
00:18:28One of the things he said in the campaign speech is, I will tell those who bring harm to others to go to church.
00:18:38 raw, killers among us" -- >> I think the greatest fear the public should have is some of these people are going home.
00:18:55>> Those who commit murder on the outside, then go back on the inside.
00:18:57>> I held him in a choke hold and started hitting him and beating him up.
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00:21:36>>> We've heard the warnings from prison staff.
00:21:39>> They're going to come back to our communities.
00:21:41They're going to go back and live next to you or him or me.
00:21:44I want to make sure I've done everything I can so when he does live next to me I can worry about asking him to turn his music down, maybe share a 40 with me, have a barbecue but not whether or not he's hiding automatic weapons.
00:22:00>> We've also heard the warnings from inmates.
00:22:04>> I think the greatest fear the public should have is some of these people are going home.
00:22:09When they get out there, you're going to meet these guys in an alley one day.
00:22:12If he asks you for your wallet and you don't give it to him, he's going to callously pull out a gun and shoot you dead.
00:22:18He's been taught that in here, to be sensitive is to be weak.
00:22:25>> But for johnny estra, the warnings turned into reality.
00:22:30>> When you're in prison, you learn a certain mentality.
00:22:34That was my mistake when I got out.
00:22:36I took that mentality that i learned in here out there.
00:22:41And it didn't get me nothing but back here.
00:22:49>> Here, it's colorado state penitentiary.
00:22:51And this time, estrada is in for murder, a crime he committed after being released from his first prison term.
00:22:56>> In here, you take things a lot more serious.
00:22:59Someone calls you a punk or a somebody calls you a bitch, someone says I'm going to kill you, in here, that means, you know, you hold people to that word, to them words, man.
00:23:16When I got out and guys were saying about that, I'm going to kill john, I'm going to do this to him.
00:23:23The first thing in my mind is i better go kill him before he gets me.
00:23:25Even though he was probably talking out of his ass.
00:23:27He didn't understand the type of person I am and where I've been and the thought process I've learned in here.
00:23:30And he's dead now for it.
00:23:33It's kind of like a kill or be killed.
00:23:36>> Estrada's prison education started early.
00:23:39>> How old were you when you were first arrested?
00:23:41>> About 13 or 14.
00:23:43>> What did you do?
00:23:46>> Stealing a stereo out of a car.
00:23:48That's how it all began.
00:23:51Start out stealing bubble gum at the stores all the way to snatching purses, stealing car stereos, stealing bikes, stealing the whole car, breaking in houses, robberies, escape, just graduate all the way to murder.
00:24:08It seemed like it was a never-ending chain.
00:24:10>> And estrada added even more links to that chain.
00:24:13When he returned to prison on the murder charge, he was involved in another killing.
00:24:22>> Another inmate came up behind a friend of mine and stabbed him in the eye.
00:24:28I got up, he tried to come stab me.
00:24:32I grabbed him and held him in a choke hold.
00:24:33My friend started hitting him, beating him up.
00:24:37All the officers were aware of this at the time.
00:24:39They have a policy here.
00:24:40They won't intervene unless there's four officers to one inmate.
00:24:43At the time there were 16 of us out in the pod eating breakfast and that's, what, 64?
00:24:50They need to come in.
00:24:51They just sat there and watched.
00:24:55I didn't want to let go of the guy because he still had a knife tied to his hand.
00:25:01I never let go.
00:25:01He ended up dying.
00:25:03>> Estrada was again found guilty of murder.
00:25:07He hasn't given up his kill or be killed outlook.
00:25:13>> I can't sit here and say, I'm remorseful for what I did, because better him than me.
00:25:19They chose their own fate.
00:25:22Taking human life, that's the worse you can possibly do.
00:25:29But I'm not going to let anybody hurt me or do anything to me.
00:25:33And I have to live regardless of the consequences, if I have to pick up 40-year sentences, 50-year sentences for defending myself, I'll do that.
00:25:44I'll do everything I can not to be carried out in a box from in here.
00:25:48>> Together, estrada's sentences almost guarantee the only way he will ever leave prison is in a box.
00:25:52>> The first murder case I got 36 years, the second one I got 48.
00:25:58I'm doing 84 years.
00:26:01I can sit here and blame the officers for not coming in and intervening and I didn't have to choke the dude six minutes.
00:26:07>> Though estrada could be spending the rest of his life in this super max penitentiary, he isn't losing sleep over it.
00:26:12>> Is there a bible down there?
00:26:13Do you read that much?
00:26:14>> No, it's just there for good luck.
00:26:23At peace?
00:26:24I'm at peace with myself.
00:26:25You have to be.
00:26:26I think there's a certain time when you have to look at reality and say, well, this is home.
00:26:29This is home.
00:26:30You can't focus on what's going on out there.
00:26:35Can't let it get to you.
00:26:37Just have to forget about the outside world and understand this is your world now.
00:26:44And this is reality.
00:26:44This is home.
00:26:45I can sit here and say, I did what I had to do, regardless of the consequences.
00:26:50Can't sit here and kick myself in the ass for it.
00:26:52It happens.
00:26:58 raw" -- >> I'm in here for heat of passion.
00:27:00I caught my wife with somebody.
00:27:04>> Spouse killers.
00:27:04>> I had tried to make it look like a suicide.
00:27:07My husband had been suicidal.
00:27:09He had a history of being suicidal.
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00:30:20>>> Hello, everyone, I'm lynn berry.
00:30:22Here's what's happening.
00:30:23Hundreds of californians are pro-testing a two-year sentence for a white transit officer convicted of shooting an unarmed black man on a train platform.
00:30:31>>> In haiti, three deaths are being blamed on widespread flooding.
00:30:37>>> An unfortunate milestone for u.s. banks.
00:30:43More banks have shut down more this year than any time since the savings and loan crisis in THE '80s.
00:30:49" >>> due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised.
00:30:59>>> Prisons usually aren't associated with churches.
00:31:04But over the years on "lockup," we filmed almost every type of religion there is.
00:31:10And yet, still, on a standard cell search, we found out behind bars, few things are sacred.
00:31:17>> Even though they have their bible or koran, whatever religious preference they are, they'll still hide dope and hide weapons in it.
00:31:24You'll find razor blades and dope stuffed in the bindings.
00:31:30Everybody finds god in prison.
00:31:30If you're looking for him, this is where he's at.
00:31:33Come on in.
00:31:38>> We've met some inmates that have seemed very devout, even as they grapple with the realities of their crimes.
00:31:50>> it was in the middle of central california we heard the sounds of the muslim cult of prayer emanating from a cell at kern valley state prison.
00:31:59Cellmates jose garza and rehan ali bhutto explain to our crew how their religious practices aren't hindered by prison bars.
00:32:0900 we get up and do prayers.
00:32:13We begin our day like that.
00:32:15>> Tell me why this cell is so different from the other cells we've been in?
00:32:23>> It's based on cleanness.
00:32:24We have to be clean.
00:32:25We keep ourselves clean and organized.
00:32:29Islam is islam, in here or on the street, it's the same.
00:32:31>> Bhutto and garza have more in common than religion.
00:32:36>> My sentence is life without the possibility of parole.
00:32:42>> I'm charged with murder in the first degree, as far as details, life without possibility, same thing.
00:32:46>> I'm here for heat of passion.
00:32:48I caught my wife with somebody and -- >> and?
00:32:52>> Killed her.
00:32:53I'm not proud.
00:32:55I regretted every single minute of it.
00:32:58>> What was the charge?
00:32:59What was the conviction?
00:33:00Not heat of passion?
00:33:01>> It is heat of passion.
00:33:02>> Rehan told us he took responsibility for his actions.
00:33:04During the course of the interview, it seemed as though he kind of left the door open a little crack to say, I'm not really sure.
00:33:15>> A lot of people say I can justify according to the bible.
00:33:18Or koran.
00:33:19If your spouse is cheating on somebody, you have a right.
00:33:20God tells it a certain way.
00:33:23We are human beings.
00:33:24We are given choice, right from wrong.
00:33:26I knew what was right.
00:33:28What I did, I can't justify what I did.
00:33:30She had a mother.
00:33:31She was somebody's daughter.
00:33:33She had a father.
00:33:35The worst part is, I have a daughter with my wife and she just don't have a mother but she don't have a father for what i did.
00:33:42I live with that every day.
00:33:45>> Born in pakistan, but raised in wyoming, bhutto told us his religion made him a victim as well.
00:33:52>> During my trial, it was after SEPTEMBER 11th.
00:33:57It's the way it was.
00:33:59Not one case like mine, anybody got a sentence like I did because I'm from pakistan.
00:34:02I believe in muslim.
00:34:03I'm muslim.
00:34:07Still, I'm a firm believer, whatever I have coming, nobody can stop it.
00:34:11Nobody can benefit me or harm me without his permission.
00:34:17The way muslim believes, when leaves fall from the tree, it doesn't fall without his will.
00:34:24Every day what I do, what i don't has been written in my book.
00:34:28♪♪ Won't you take my hand ♪♪
00:34:29♪♪ we will follow just the same ♪♪
00:34:31♪♪ we will follow just the same ♪♪
00:34:32>> bhutto is not the only spouse killer we've met that sees the hand of god at work in their lives.
00:34:42>> our crew first noticed cynthia singing in the gospel choir.
00:34:50A at the north carolina correctional institute for women.
00:34:53>> I've been convicted of first degree murder and my sentence is life in prison without parole.
00:34:56>> The real surprise came when she told us of her life before prison.
00:35:00The mother of two used to make her living on the other side of the bars.
00:35:05>> There's not too many people in here who used to be a correctional officer for the same state they're now incarcerated in.
00:35:18It's actually been very helpful to me.
00:35:20Having been an officer, I can understand a reasons behind a lot of the silly rules we have to go through and the procedures we have to go through.
00:35:24I understand their perspective more.
00:35:28So it's easier to take some of the humiliations we have to go through.
00:35:32>> Rupel offered no excuses for her fall from corrections officer to inmate.
00:35:38>> I'm convicted of first degree murder.
00:35:41It was the death of my husband.
00:35:45We had been married 22 1/2 years.
00:35:48He was a good man.
00:35:49My husband did not abuse me.
00:35:50He did not deserve what I did to him.
00:35:52It's horrendous.
00:35:53There's no excuse for what i did.
00:35:57I know I'm here -- that life is a merciful sentence for what I've done.
00:36:02My husband was clinically depressed.
00:36:06When he'd be off his medication and be in a depressive state, he was not an easy man to live with at that time.
00:36:12He was hard to please.
00:36:13There was another man involved at the time.
00:36:16My husband knew about that.
00:36:19I guess he didn't really see the danger in that.
00:36:23Here, he was being so difficult to please.
00:36:28And here was this other man who I thought -- at least told me, I'm a godess, I walk on water, everything I do is right.
00:36:38>> Rupel believed her background in law enforcement would allow her to pull off the perfect murder.
00:36:41>> It happened on a saturday morning and I was arrested monday morning.
00:36:44It was pretty fast.
00:36:45I guess it was pretty obvious, too.
00:36:48I tried so desperately to convince people I was innocent.
00:36:52I tried to make it look like a suicide.
00:36:54My husband had been suicidal.
00:36:58He had a history of being suicidal.
00:37:00I figured that would be the easiest way.
00:37:02Make it look like he did it.
00:37:06>> How did you do it?
00:37:07How did he die?
00:37:08>> I shot him.
00:37:09I shot him.
00:37:20I wish I could go back.
00:37:24In one stupid moment I destroyed everything.
00:37:30He didn't do anything to me.
00:37:31I lost everything I thought i was going to keep.
00:37:35I lost my husband.
00:37:39And he was a good man.
00:37:40Like I said, he did not deserve what I did to him.
00:37:45I lost my daughters.
00:37:48>> Rupel told us she regrets the past but she's also moving on.
00:37:52>> I still face the consequences of what I did.
00:38:00But I don't go around patted down with that guilt anymore.
00:38:04Yes, I'm guilty but god has forgiven me.
00:38:06>> Rupel told us her religious conversion wasn't easy.
00:38:10>> We had ladies come in to do a little bible study.
00:38:16I have to say, I hated them.
00:38:18They come in with their cheery faces, smiling, telling me everything will be all right.
00:38:22Everything will be all right.
00:38:23Jesus will fix it.
00:38:25I was like, you don't know what you're talking about.
00:38:30Maybe the biggest problem you got is you might burn the dinner or have an overdue parking ticket.
00:38:34You're not facing what I was facing.
00:38:36I was facing the death penalty at that point.
00:38:38I don't want to hear it.
00:38:39Finally I just -- all right, I'll come if you just leave me alone.
00:38:43I don't want to hear it!
00:38:45And don't ask me to talk!
00:38:48That's how I was.
00:38:50>> Eventually, rupel joined the bible study and found a connection with several of the other participants.
00:38:57They too, killed their husbands or boyfriends.
00:39:01>> It helped me knowing I have sisters I can lean on, someone i can talk to, someone I can share these things with.
00:39:08In here, you have to be careful who you share things with.
00:39:11♪♪ Power for you all ♪♪
00:39:16♪♪ he gives power for you all ♪♪
00:39:19>> while rupel appeared to have found redemption behind bars, our crew was struck by a comment made by none other than the director of her prison choir.
00:39:26>> The inmates are con artists.
00:39:27They kind of have to be to survive.
00:39:35You can't be sure, no matter how beautiful the song sounds, how much heart and soul and person there is behind that song.
00:39:42I mean, they're not very different from the rest of us.
00:39:47♪♪ Hey hey let me tell you ♪♪
00:39:47 raw killers among us" -- >> I hate to say it, but murder is a respected crime in here by a lot of these inmates.
00:39:59>> I just shot the man three times.
00:40:02The other police, he was still down, so I shot him three times.
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00:40:39®® it's amazing ™™ áááá"" ç8 [email protected] 1 ló >>> Over the years on "lockup," we've learned two things about convicted killers.
00:43:18One, they come from any part of society and, two, they assume a place of honor on the inmate hierarchy.
00:43:28>> Probably your most respected inmates are men serving life sentences to murder then armed robbery, burglary, grand theft auto, grand robbery.
00:43:37>> You'll hear them brag, I'm not a thief, I'm a killer, I'm a murderer.
00:43:45>> I hate to say it but murder is a respected crime in here by a lot of the inmates and they don't bother me.
00:43:53>> We met gerald reefland at the state penitentiary in iowa, where he was serving two life sentences for murder and attempted murder.
00:44:0011 Years earlier, he opened fire at the factory where he worked.
00:44:02>> I was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia.
00:44:03And I didn't know it at the time.
00:44:07My family was trying to get me committed.
00:44:10I refused to go to a mental health place because I was afraid they would take away my guns.
00:44:15I was a gun collector.
00:44:16I had a lot of guns.
00:44:18I knew once they found me mentally incompetent, I wouldn't be able to have guns anymore.
00:44:25It developed to the point where I got delusional and i hallucinated and imagined that my wife had been kidnapped, raped, tortured and killed by these guys at work.
00:44:34I thought I'd take vengeance into my own hands.
00:44:36That's what I did.
00:44:39I shot two employees in the head, then I also shot two in the leg.
00:44:46>> Reefland's symptoms have been treated with medication for several years.
00:44:55He now works in another factory, the metal shop on prison grounds.
00:44:58>> Here you are back in a work environment.
00:44:59Your fellow workers, did they know what your crime was?
00:45:01I'm just curious how that played out.
00:45:02>> I imagine some of them were a little leery, scared.
00:45:06I got a lot of respect, it seems like.
00:45:08>> Where?
00:45:10>> At work and in the yard and stuff because of my crimes.
00:45:18>> He's not the only convicted murderer who sees fear behind the respect.
00:45:25When our crew arrived at anamosa, they were warned.
00:45:27The toughest inmate here might just be james "t-bone" taylor.
00:45:31He's serving a double life for murdering two police officers in 1981.
00:45:38>> I had a cop killing case.
00:45:39It made me feel like I was big man on campus.
00:45:40I was getting respect.
00:45:41It was out of fear, not because they respect me because of who i was.
00:45:46>> Taylor was involved in gang related activity on both sides of the wall since he was a teenager in east st. louis.
00:45:52He earned his nickname t-bone while serving time at another prison.
00:45:54>> The incident happened at FT. MADISON IN THE '70s.
00:45:57It was hard to get a knife, right?
00:46:00So I made a knife out of bone, out of a t-bone steak.
00:46:03We used to get steak back in the day.
00:46:07I sharpened it down and was going to stab the guy with it.
00:46:11Before I could stab the guy with it, they busted me with it.
00:46:16They just seen it in my hand, you know, and they took it.
00:46:20The name stuck.
00:46:21The guys in the penitentiary called me t-bone.
00:46:25>> But it was taylor's desire to rise to the top of the gang hierarchy on the outside.
00:46:37It happened at a raucous party in waterloo, iowa.
00:46:42When police arrived to shut it down, taylor grabbed one of the officer's pistol.
00:46:45>> I just shot the man three times, right?
00:46:49Everybody broke and run and the other police, he was still down, right?
00:46:52I ran over there and I shot him three times.
00:46:56It wasn't because I was on no drugs or no alcohol.
00:46:58I wasn't impaired, you know.
00:46:59>> And afterwards?
00:47:02>> Trying to get away, it wasn't no remorse or nothing.
00:47:08Wasn't even thinking about turning myself in or nothing like that, right?
00:47:14I hid for about five or six days in the cornfields, right?
00:47:19Before they caught me, right?
00:47:25They give me a life sentence, discharged by death.
00:47:27>> For the next five or six years we was transferred to various prisons due to gang activity and predatory behavior.
00:47:30The aging inmate landed in anamosa in 2002.
00:47:36Shortly afterwards taylor chose to participate in a victim pact program.
00:47:44But it wasn't out of remorse.
00:47:45He was hoping it would earn him a transfer back to his favorite prison.
00:47:48>> First, I was going to use it to try to get back to ft. madison.
00:47:57I wanted to play a game.
00:47:57I wanted to go back to ft. madison.
00:48:01>> His participation in the program required him to meet the sister of one of the officers he murdered.
00:48:04>> I was scared, you know, because, you know, we're under the illusion that they'd come and scream at us and cuss us out and call us all kind of names, this and that.
00:48:17I'm truly scared.
00:48:17First thing she asked me, she said, why you kill my brother?
00:48:19I don't have no reason, you know.
00:48:20Did you kill my brother because he was the police?
00:48:22I said, no.
00:48:24She says, what if I kill your mother or something.
00:48:27That tore me up, you know.
00:48:28We broke down.
00:48:30We cried.
00:48:34I'm talking about sincerely.
00:48:36We cried.
00:48:37She said, I hate you.
00:48:38I wish you was dead.
00:48:39You know?
00:48:42And it was hard for me, because all this time I've been the one that's been in control.
00:48:52She took that control and i couldn't, like, attack her or nothing like that.
00:48:54You know what I mean?
00:48:56That wasn't even in my mind.
00:48:57I didn't have control of the situation.
00:48:59She took control of the situation.
00:49:02She asked me, should I be forgiven?
00:49:06I said, no.
00:49:06She said, well, I'm going to forgive you.
00:49:12Everything I perceived that made me the big dog, she just took all that from me.
00:49:16You know what I mean?
00:49:17She took all that from me.
00:49:20She made me real humble, you know what I mean?
00:49:24I'm saying we hugged when she left.
00:49:27I killed this woman's brother.
00:49:29And people don't do that, right?
00:49:32People don't just do that.
00:49:35>> Taylor found it hard to shrug off the emotions stirred up by the visit.
00:49:39>> Because I was brought up if you murder, people will get over it, you know?
00:49:43I was a hard and violent person.
00:49:47You know what I'm saying?
00:49:49Now that I see a whole different side of me, this is how I go, man.
00:49:51People don't forget.
00:49:52People don't forgive all the time.
00:49:54I'm saying you have to live with this your whole life.
00:49:57>>> Coming up -- >> we're not looking for pity.
00:50:00What we're looking for is understanding that we know we did wrong.
00:50:03>> T-bone's past continues to haunt him.ay's business world?
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