The Ricki Lake Show - Stalkers   View more episodes

Aired at 02:30 AM on Thursday, Feb 28, 2013 (2/28/2013)      View all transcripts from this day


00:00:01How this stalking victim took matters into her own hands.
00:00:05- My heart's just like pounding.
00:00:06And I'm kind of running on adrenaline.
00:00:08But now it's like, full gear.
00:00:10- And another brave guest shares her story, but has to hide her identity in fear of her ex finding her.
00:00:15- I got a phone call from inside my house.
00:00:16My home number popped up on the caller i.d.
00:00:19There was proof that he was inside.
00:00:22...To say safe online.
00:00:23- You google your own name.
00:00:24The information that's out there.
00:00:26How does the internet get this information in the first place?
00:00:30- How do we protect ourselves?
00:00:30- We have to be aware of what exactly is out there about us.
00:00:35" hi, everybody.
00:00:53Thank you so much.
00:00:54Thank you for being here.
00:00:58Imagine someone playing a game of psychological warfare by lurking inside every corner of your mind.
00:01:05Today we are talking about stalking, a crime experienced by 2 million people in the united states.
00:01:12Even if no physical crime is committed, stalkers leave an indelible mark on their victim.
00:01:17The internet brought our first guest fame, fortune and a deranged stalker intent on ruining her career and instilling fear in her heart.
00:01:25Take a look.
00:01:27- Kourtney reppert was a successful 26-year-old model, with hundreds of thousands of online fans.
00:01:32So it came as a total shock when one of those fans seemed to turn demanding and violent.
00:01:37- "You know what my demands are.
00:01:38" stop modeling, delete all my accounts, move back home, be someone else.
00:01:45- Kourtney was being stalked online by 47-year-old luis plascencia of chicago, whom she had never met.
00:01:52Plascencia sent reppert more than three dozen threatening emails.
00:01:56- "I hope you die in an accident and crushes your ugly face through the windshield with a large piece of glass, " - when authorities finally caught up with him, they found hundreds of photos of reppert in his home.
00:02:09Plascencia was found guilty and is now awaiting sentencing.
00:02:14- Please welcome kourtney.
00:02:16- ( applause ) - Hi. how are you?
00:02:22- Good. how are you?
00:02:24- Nice to meet you.
00:02:25- Nice to meet you.
00:02:26- Thank you for being here.
00:02:26- Thank you.
00:02:27- Your story is shocking.
00:02:30- Yeah.
00:02:30- How did the stalking start?
00:02:32- Um, it started when I was actually flying privately in a private plane with my girlfriends to colorado.
00:02:39And we were just gonna go there for skiing.
00:02:42So that's what she loved to do for her birthday, so we were like, " and it was supposed to be all about her.
00:02:47And it kinda ended up being MORE ABOUT ME. ( chuckles ) - So how did he find you?
00:02:53- I had posted a photo of all of us through my facebook.
00:02:57And I got a shocking email.
00:03:00Kinda threw me off guard a bit.
00:03:02It was just the tail number ..
00:03:05- The private plane.
00:03:06..The private plane.
00:03:07And the address, the person who owned the plane, the number.
00:03:11" so when I showed it to my friend, she's like, "oh, that's the owner of the plane.
00:03:16That's who we're with.
00:03:17" - so you thought nothing of it?
00:03:19- I was kinda freaked out, though.
00:03:21- Mm-hmm.
00:03:21- But I didn't.
00:03:22And then I started getting more emails.
00:03:24- You are famous in your own right.
00:03:27You're a model and you have fans.
00:03:28- Yeah.
00:03:29- And you would sell posters, and so-- - yeah, I mean, I did a lot of-- I started out doing sports modeling, you know?
00:03:35I'm from philly.
00:03:35So I've kinda built up my fan base through that.
00:03:40, I was named " I kinda got my name around on the east coast a bit, and built up my fan page through just doing all that stuff.
00:03:50- So when did this cross the line for you?
00:03:52Was it that first comment on facebook?
00:03:55What progressed?
00:03:56- So what happened was is I was constantly getting all of these emails.
00:04:01I was getting my home address.
00:04:03And I'm like, "this is not right.
00:04:05" and then I got an email, " so I was still in colorado.
00:04:11And at this time, I was getting more and more emails.
00:04:15And as far away as I was and I felt safe, I didn't feel right within myself, so-- - did you reach out to the police?
00:04:24, I had went right to the f.b.i.
00:04:29'Cause I was so freaked out.
00:04:30- And did they take that seriously?
00:04:30I mean, you went in with all these emails and all the evidence?
00:04:35- I don't think that they took me seriously.
00:04:37But they did end up, obviously, picking up my case.
00:04:41So, you know, I went to the local authorities right after that, when the f.b.i.
00:04:45" I wasn't satisfied.
00:04:47And then I ended up hiring a private detective to-- - you took matters into your own hands.
00:04:51- Yeah.
00:04:53- So what did you have the private eye do?
00:04:54Just to find out who this guy is?
00:04:57- Try to track him down, try to figure it out.
00:04:59Because I was constantly getting emails, I couldn't even like, function throughout the day.
00:05:04- And you were getting two different emails at the same time.
00:05:06So on the one hand, he would " and on the other hand, he'd say, "you're the most beautiful woman. I love you.
00:05:11" - mm-hmm.
00:05:13- And you put two and two together that this was coming from the same person.
00:05:15- Yeah, so this person, before I even went to colorado, had reached out to me.
00:05:20Said he's been following me for a long time.
00:05:22He had saved all my photos and that, you know, he has cancer and he, you know, just adores me and really likes my positivity that I bring on all my social networks.
00:05:32Kinda told me his story a little bit.
00:05:34And of course, you know, I had my email, my business account email set to my paypal.
00:05:38But I would get those emails personally to me.
00:05:41So he had contacted that email.
00:05:44And then that's how it kinda started.
00:05:45- And how did this affect every other aspect of your life?
00:05:49- It affected everything.
00:05:50I mean, it's like waking up and you just wanna sleep all day, 'cause you just don't know what's kinda gonna happen.
00:05:56I didn't wanna leave my house.
00:05:58I didn't wanna talk to anybody.
00:06:00I kinda shut everyone out of my life, including even family.
00:06:04Because it was so hard for a person like me, who loves reaching out ..
00:06:12To feel so confined within myself that I felt almost embarrassed that this was actually ..
00:06:18- That's-- I mean, that is so interesting that you would be embarrassed by this, when this has really nothing to do with you.
00:06:23This was about him.
00:06:25Well, we're gonna take a quick break.
00:06:26When we come back, we're gonna find out how kourtney helped the f.b.i. catch her stalker.
00:06:30Stay tuned.
00:06:31- ( applause ) - I kept warning him.
00:06:38I was like, "look, I'm gonna block you.
00:06:40I've been very nice to you.
00:06:42But you're constantly " and that's when I got a personal email from his sister, saying that he was gonna kill himself.
00:06:53- We think of stalking as a celebrity-oriented thing, but the majority are people just like us.
00:07:00And what I tell victims, it is not your fault.
00:07:03If you take nothing else ..
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00:09:17- Welcome back.
00:09:18Talking with kourtney, a model who helped law enforcement put her stalker behind bars.
00:09:22Okay, so you find out-- these two very different emails keep coming in.
00:09:27One that they want to harm you, the other, they love you and you're so beautiful.
00:09:30How did you come to find out it was the same person and where did you find him?
00:09:35They were kind of coming in all at the same time.
00:09:37I was getting-- - how many a day?
00:09:39- Oh, it could have ranged.
00:09:41I mean, there's days where I didn't get any.
00:09:43But it was very rare.
00:09:44But normally it ranged between 5 to 45 a day.
00:09:48- Did you ever respond to him?
00:09:49- Never.
00:09:50I would get them, and literally in the middle of me doing things, I would start shaking.
00:09:54And I would read 'em, and I would be like, "okay, I'm not gonna read this.
00:09:58I'm not gonna put this negativity in my brain.
00:09:59I'm not gonna read it.
00:10:00" and I would just get flooded with them.
00:10:05Just nonstop emails.
00:10:07But at the same time, you know, it's kind of hard when I had a social media, like, network-- kind of the way that I do have it, it's hard not to avoid it.
00:10:16You know?
00:10:18So-- but how i ended up catching him was he was constantly writing to me, and then I would get hate mail almost at the same time.
00:10:27And then I kind of just started putting two together.
00:10:30I didn't have a really good gut feeling at this-- with this person anyways.
00:10:34So I kept warning him.
00:10:35I was like, "look, " you know, "i've been very nice to you, but you're constantly " now this is him being himself.
00:10:43So I when I had blocked him-- right before my birthday, I blocked him on my facebook, and that's when I got a personal email from supposedly him but also his sister, saying that he was going to kill himself, that he was going to put himself in the hospital, like doing something bad, you know, he has to unblock me, and, like, you know-- I'm like, "i'm not gonna unblock this person.
00:11:09This person's obviously not " so after my birthday party, I kind of was like, "you know what?
00:11:17I'm going to do some more investigating here.
00:11:19" so I literally pulled up his email to the stalker's email address on every email.
00:11:26- And you figured out address was the same.
00:11:28 address because he had contacted me to, like, not have him blocked.
00:11:33And he was impersonating his sister as well.
00:11:36And then I looked at the stalker email and they matched.
00:11:40So I gave all this right to the fbi.
00:11:43And mind you, the fbi already had access to my phone calls, my emails.
00:11:47There was being drive-bys around where I lived.
00:11:50Every-- they were watching me, you know?
00:11:53- And they found out that this guy was in chicago.
00:11:56He was making these emails to you on a computer in the library.
00:12:01- Chicago library, and the whole reason why he got caught was because when he sent me a personal email, it was actually his real name.
00:12:09So they were able to then track him down and able to see, okay, his face matched his real name, matched the address to where he is.
00:12:17It's in walking distance from the chicago library.
00:12:19And it took about almost a month or two to actually file for paperwork and get it all settled and-- - he was arrested?
00:12:27- I got a phone call at the end of june and it was like, " and I said, " and he goes, " and he's like, "we're going to arrest him at 6:00 in the morning.
00:12:39You need to be " " and my heart's just like pounding.
00:12:43And I'm kind of running on adrenaline this whole time, but now it's like full gear.
00:12:50- You did not know this person?
00:12:51He had never met you?
00:12:52- No.
00:12:52- He had never been within 1,000 miles of you.
00:12:54- Never met him.
00:12:55- He is behind bars?
00:12:56- He is behind bars.
00:12:57- What was he charged with?
00:12:57- He's charged wh a felony account.
00:13:00( sighs ) My court case is actually still open, so I'm still being monitored, everything like that, ..
00:13:09- But he's behind bars.
00:13:11- He's behind bars.
00:13:11I think his sentence is going to be up to five years.
00:13:14- I know you feel all kinds of emotions.
00:13:16You feel embarrassed.
00:13:17You feel guilt.
00:13:19How does your family react?
00:13:20'Cause I know your dad had some issue with the fact that what you do for a living maybe brought this on.
00:13:25- Yeah, you know, it wasn't just my father.
00:13:28I think it kind of-- I came from a very small town.
00:13:31The thing you do is you graduate, you get a job, you get married, you have kids.
00:13:37And for me, I just-- ..
00:13:39Saw that for myself this early on.
00:13:41- How do you feel now?
00:13:41I mean, now, you know-- does it make you nervous about getting back in this business and doing what you love to do?
00:13:48Or are you getting over it?
00:13:50- I wouldn't say that I'm over it.
00:13:52I'm cautious every day.
00:13:54But it doesn't change anything.
00:13:57For a long time, when I was healing, I didn't leave my complex where I lived for about four months.
00:14:02And I've lost a lot of friendships.
00:14:04I can tell you that, and I've definitely learned a whole lot.
00:14:08But I think what's so amazing about this particular experience is I can either pretend that I'm a victim and feel bad about myself and feel bad that this happened to me, or I can almost kind of become out-- stronger and more of a fighter and empower other girls to help in their particular situation.
00:14:27- ( applause ) - Thank you.
00:14:31People are so scared to talk about it.
00:14:34And I think what's so important is that they should not feel alone because I felt alone.
00:14:38And I can only imagine, if I have all these people in my life, and I feel alone, I can only imagine how people feel that aren't in that particular industry, you know.
00:14:47- Well, you are a warrior.
00:14:49You are amazing.
00:14:50- I am a fighter.
00:14:51- Amazing what you were able to do.
00:14:52And i, you know, I hope you get back on your feet and are feeling safe all over again.
00:14:55- Yeah.
00:14:56- Thank you so much for sharing your story.
00:14:57- Thank you.
00:14:58- ( applause ) - Thank you so much.
00:14:59- Up next, how can you protect yourself from a stalker?
00:15:02A criminal prosecutor gives us life-saving information you won't want to miss.
00:15:05Stay tuned.
00:15:07- ( applause ) ..
00:15:15- I actually had a legislator say to me, "well, I don't see why we should put someone in jail " and they don't understand these are not pests-- that these areriminals.
00:15:26That they're mental terrorists.
00:15:28That they're destroying people's lives.
00:15:34" I know that he left a dead squirrel on your porch.
00:15:45,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, - stalking is a shockingly under-reported crime, which is why the conversation we're having today is so important.
00:18:25Rhonda saunders is a prosecutor who brought justice to madonna, steven spielberg, and gwyneth paltrow.
00:18:30She also changed the stalking law in california to specifically include indirect threats.
00:18:35Rhonda, thank you for being here.
00:18:37How has the system evolved to help support victims like kourtney?
00:18:40- I think the system has evolved greatly since we first got our stalking law back in 1991.
00:18:47It's a fairly new stalking law.
00:18:49Eventually the police, the system, the judges, the prosecutors have started to take it more seriously because back in the old days, I actually had a legislator say to me "well, I don't see why we should put someone in jail " and they don't understand-- these are not pests-- that these are criminals, that they're mental terrorists, that they're destroying people's lives.
00:19:13And-- - of course now with the internet and technology, they can get to you so much easier than before.
00:19:22- With the internet, it has opened everything up.
00:19:25There's no more privacy.
00:19:26There's really no way that you can block a stalker or someone who wants to find you.
00:19:33If you go online, for example, a lot of times you'll see these ads: " "pay us $20" - yes.
00:19:41- And when you do that, it is so frightening-- or even if you google your own name-- the information that's out there.
00:19:48We did this for one of our victims.
00:19:50She had changed her name, and moved, and made a lot of changes.
00:19:55And when we put her name in, it came back with her new name, her new address, her unlisted phone number, her social security number, the names of her family members, where they lived.
00:20:06- So what are we to do?
00:20:07How do we protect ourselves?
00:20:09- I think we-- - I'm talking "we" like the every-person, not just the celebrity.
00:20:12- Well, first of all I think we have to be aware of what exactly is out there about us.
00:20:17And there really is no way to block us because how does the internet get this information in the first place?
00:20:22If you buy a magazine subscription or you go online and you buy something from amazon or one of the other sites, that information is put in lists and can be sold to other people.
00:20:36That's how this information gets out there.
00:20:39- As far as her being embarrassed, is that common for victims?
00:20:42- You know, I hear that from so many victims.
00:20:45It's terrible because it's not your fault if you're being stalked.
00:20:50It's the stalker's issue.
00:20:52So you should not feel embarrassed.
00:20:54In fact you need to deal with other people, to have other people help you.
00:20:59So don't feel it's your fault.
00:21:01Sometimes the stalker wants to make you feel like it is your fault.
00:21:05In domestic violence cases, for example, I keep hearing from stalkers "oh, she made me do it.
00:21:10" they make themselves out to be the victims.
00:21:16And no.
00:21:17The victim is the one who is suffering, who is being destroyed internally.
00:21:22- Well, in her case, she was able to afford hiring a private investigator.
00:21:24- Yes.
00:21:24- What do people do when they don't have the resources?
00:21:26- We think of stalking as a celebrity-oriented thing because the media covers celebrities when they get stalked.
00:21:36But of the 3-- it's actually 4 million people a year who are stalked in the united states.
00:21:41The majority are people just like us.
00:21:44They're students.
00:21:45They're housewives.
00:21:46They're people who are leading just everyday lives.
00:21:49And you can't afford to hire an investigator.
00:21:53You can't afford to put in a security system.
00:21:56But there are things that you can do.
00:21:58What I tell victims-- and we're going back to the-- get rid of that feeling of embarrassment.
00:22:04It is not your fault!
00:22:04If you take nothing else from this today, it is not your fault if someone is focusing on you and trying to destroy your life.
00:22:13- Well, we're gonna have more information on what people can do to protect themselves, but coming up next, she changed her name, her address, and social security number in order to keep herself safe from an ex.
00:22:22Her powerful story of survival is coming up next.
00:22:33- He would come and spray his cologne outside of your house.
00:22:35- He had had this overpowering cologne.
00:22:38That was kind of his trademark.
00:22:39It's something really obscure.
00:22:40( sniffs ) I went outside on our back patio and got hit with the smell.
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00:26:00This was cate's living nightmare as her ex tormented her and her children for years.
00:26:05She is here today to prove to other women that there is a way out.
00:26:08She has chosen not to show her face for her own protection.
00:26:12Please welcome cate.
00:26:13- Thank you.
00:26:15- So when did your ex start to exhibit this kind of shocking behavior?
00:26:19- He had just gone through a loss in the family.
00:26:22A relative had died and he was crushed by it.
00:26:25Shortly after that he had started drinking and just lost himself pretty quickly.
00:26:33Oh my gosh, we have to help him.
00:26:34You know, we have to help him.
00:26:37Within a couple of months, I'd put him out of the house because I just could not have that kind of behavior around my kids.
00:26:43What had happened is one day he stormed back in and told me he was staying and that I could leave and leave the kids with him instead.
00:26:50And so I started carefully putting together a plan to get out because I was terrified.
00:26:56I was on eggshells and I knew-- I knew it was gonna end badly.
00:26:59- And so did you get a restraining order?
00:27:01- As soon as I left, yes.
00:27:03- Okay.
00:27:04 or you got him out of the house?
00:27:06- I took the kids.
00:27:07He walked out the door one day and I walked out a half hour later and never went back.
00:27:13We went to a family member's and I got a restraining order immediately.
00:27:16Immediately filed the paper work.
00:27:17I had a somewhat documented case at that point so getting the restraining order was easy.
00:27:21Started putting together a life with my children.
00:27:26- And so when did things go to this-- where he was still present?
00:27:30Even though he wasn't there, you aren't seeing him, you knew he'd been there?
00:27:33- Immediately.
00:27:34- So what was the first sign?
00:27:34- The first sign-- I was at a family member's with my children.
00:27:38I had left just a couple weeks previous.
00:27:41And he was outside.
00:27:43He was doing drive-bys.
00:27:44He had-- when we first got our first apartment, I was at my family member's again just for dinner.
00:27:50I got a phone call from inside my house.
00:27:53It came to my cell phone on my home pne numbe that's what popped up on the caller i.d.
00:27:57We were in that house for a little while.
00:28:00And there was proof-- consistent proof that he was inside.
00:28:02The one day I took the girls to school-- and I came home and he had shaved in my bathroom sink.
00:28:07There was half-inch stubble all over the place.
00:28:10- So he did not have keys?
00:28:12- No.
00:28:13- He would break in.
00:28:14- Yes.
00:28:14- And do it on-- you think he did it on purpose?
00:28:16- Oh, absolutely.
00:28:17It was to freak me out.
00:28:18It was to scare the crap out of me.
00:28:20- And you kept this from your kids.
00:28:22You managed to kind of keep them apart from what was going on.
00:28:24- A lot of it.
00:28:26I'm a strong believer in-- you don't give them more than they absolutely need.
00:28:32I think I put on a good show.
00:28:34When I needed to tell them, to make sure that they were safe, they knew.
00:28:37They knew he was around a little bit, but they didn't know details.
00:28:39- It's like fatal attraction.
00:28:41I know that he left a dead squirrel on your porch.
00:28:44- Yes.
00:28:45- And you went to the police.
00:28:45And the police said, "oh, it probably " - the police said that it was probably walking on power lines to my roof.
00:28:52It probably was on the roof and fell in onto my porch and landed on my doormat.
00:28:56I mean, when you're followed and you have to start paying attention, you just notice details.
00:29:02Unfortunately you learn how things fall, and how water pours, and all these crazy things.
00:29:07But you start to understand what is normal and what is not.
00:29:10- What else did he do?
00:29:13- There were several instances.
00:29:16He had had this overpowering cologne.
00:29:18And I went outside-- the one day out on our back patio-- and got hit with the smell.
00:29:22I thought I was crazy.
00:29:23I thought I was absolutely insane.
00:29:26Couldn't possibly be smelling this stuff.
00:29:28And my daughter walked outside and said, " at that point, she hadn't seen him in years, but they still remembered.
00:29:35- So he would come and spray his cologne outside of your house?
00:29:37- Yeah.
00:29:38- Each time this happens, you call the police?
00:29:41- ( sighs ) MOST TIMES.
00:29:42I mean, eventually you start to feel like an idiot.
00:29:45And you have the random officer that shows up, that doesn't know the whole story, that just thinks, "okay, somebody moved " and that's probably the most unfortunate thing is that in order to show a pattern of stalking, you have to show that pattern.
00:29:58So every crazy instance makes you look nuts.
00:30:01It makes you look like you're just overreacting.
00:30:04But without that pattern, they can never ever actually arrest them.
00:30:07They never have enough.
00:30:08- Did he eventually get arrested?
00:30:10- Yes.
00:30:10It was actually a traffic stop.
00:30:11They had his phone records.
00:30:14They were pinging his phone.
00:30:14They couldn't catch him.
00:30:15They could not catch him.
00:30:17It was just-- he just messed up and blew a stop sign or something.
00:30:21Some random officer, I think out of state, pulled him over and ran him.
00:30:26There were a couple instances where he had been stopped and the cops just didn't run him in the system.
00:30:30There were like five warrants out.
00:30:32But if they don't run them, they can't arrest them.
00:30:34- So finally he got caught.
00:30:35He is now currently behind bars?
00:30:36- He's behind bars.
00:30:38- And how do you feel now?
00:30:42I went from hiding at first-- what had happened is he had been arrested.
00:30:47He did six-- he did a year and he came out.
00:30:50Within three months, I was stalked again.
00:30:52And so the documentation and the police logs-- it all started all over again.
00:30:56So that first year, I laid low.
00:30:58When he came back, I thought " and I can't lay low anymore because that's what he wants.
00:31:04- We're gonna take a quick break.
00:31:06More with cate's story when we come back.
00:31:08Don't go away.
00:31:17- Were there ever signs when you were together that he was capable of this?
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00:33:03,,,,,,,,,,,, - we're here with cate, who worked hard to protect herself from a menacing ex who taunted and threatened her and her children with disturbing behavior.
00:34:33How did you keep your children's lives relatively normal?
00:34:36- I think as a parent, you do what you have to do.
00:34:39I mean, I know, especially as a single mother for years, you set the tone.
00:34:45You really set the tone.
00:34:46My kids had to go to school.
00:34:48And had to be safe and comfortable.
00:34:50And they deserved to have their lives.
00:34:52So at times I'm sure it was hard.
00:34:53At times I'm sure they kind of had a clue.
00:34:56- What advice do you have for other-- I mean we hear 4 million people are stalked every year.
00:35:02What would you say to them to those people that are scared like you were?
00:35:07- You have to call the police.
00:35:09You have to document everything.
00:35:10You have to keep a log of every-- every instance.
00:35:13You have to write down the time.
00:35:15You have to write down the date.
00:35:16You have to have a paper trail.
00:35:18You need to call your local women's center because they have resources.
00:35:20They have support.
00:35:22If you have court dates eventually, they will go with you.
00:35:27For a while laying low and pulling everything close might be the best thing.
00:35:32But sometimes being a little more public and a little more vocal helps you even more because at that point somebody isn't as inclined to come after you or to torture you if everybody knows it.
00:35:43- Were there ever signs when you were together that he was capable of this?
00:35:47- There were signs that he was angry.
00:35:49There were signs that there were issues.
00:35:51But I can say that when we had split leading up to that, we were in a very good place.
00:35:56I didn't see it coming.
00:35:57I think once it started coming, I knew I had a huge problem.
00:36:00I had no doubt.
00:36:02I didn't really ever see this coming.
00:36:04- How are you doing now?
00:36:04How are your kids?
00:36:06- I'm good.
00:36:06The kids are good.
00:36:07Happily remarried.
00:36:09My kids are happy and well-adjusted.
00:36:12Life is really really good.
00:36:14- And is he put away for a long time?
00:36:16- Hopefully.
00:36:18- That is great.
00:36:20Well, prosecutor rhonda saunders ..
00:36:26... Which has been adapted into a tv movie airing on lifetime this spring.
00:36:31That is really awesome.
00:36:33Cate also said that she was embarrassed to report the psychotic ex exhibiting this behavior.
00:36:39Is that typical?
00:36:40- It's very typical.
00:36:41But for example, things that would seem innocuous such as spraying his cologne in the backyard, moving the lawn furniture-- he's sending a message to her.
00:36:51And we have to be aware of that.
00:36:53You can move.
00:36:55You can try to hide from me.
00:36:56I'm going to find you.
00:36:58And leaving those traces are just as frightening as somebody standing in front of you " - is it true they did change your social security number and your name?
00:37:08They were going to go back to your ex to tell him, to notify him?
00:37:12- With a formal protection from abuse order, legally the other party has to be served with any change made to the order.
00:37:20So if they did a name change to that order-- - it would be on there.
00:37:23- It would be on there and he would have to be served with it.
00:37:25Supposedly, hopefully, there's a loophole that because technically I'm the same person, it should hold up in any court of law.
00:37:32- Sourrently he does not know who you are, your name, where you live, or any of that information?
00:37:38- One can hope.
00:37:38- Wow. wow.
00:37:39Do you live in fear today?
00:37:40- ( sighs ) I don't live in fear.
00:37:42I really don't think about it.
00:37:45I honestly have gotten to a point where life is good.
00:37:49I need to focus on what's in front of me.
00:37:51But I am always aware.
00:37:52- Well, your story is inspiring, your resilience.
00:37:56Thank you.
00:37:57Thank you so much for being here.
00:37:58All the best.
00:38:00Up next, rhonda gives us an inside look into some of her most notorious cases.
00:38:05Stay tuned.
00:38:13- That's the case that made me go up to sacramento because I did not want another stalking victim to be turned away by the police department saying, "well, come back " ..
00:39:13,,,,,,,, - back with rhonda saunders who is a criminal prosecutor who has worked to put a number of high profile stalkers behind bars.
00:41:44Thank goodness.
00:41:45So far today, we've been talking mainly about men stalking women but women stalk too.
00:41:51- Absolutely, anybody can be a stalker.
00:41:52And anybody can be a stalking victim.
00:41:54In fact the first case I ever did-- my first stalking case was probably one of the most bizarre cases.
00:42:01And it was a woman stalking another woman.
00:42:05They had met at work.
00:42:08And the stalker had a crush on the victim.
00:42:11The victim rejected her.
00:42:14And then the stalking started.
00:42:16'Cause, keep in mind, stalking is not about love.
00:42:19It's about anger, and rage, and rejection.
00:42:22That's when it kicks in.
00:42:24It has nothing to do with "i love this person so much.
00:42:26" so with this case the stalker felt ..
00:42:34And launched a campaign against our victim trying to get her fired from her job.
00:42:39Showing up at the work place, screaming, yelling, cursing at her.
00:42:44And she would attack the victim and her friends when they'd go to a movie or a restaurant.
00:42:49And the victim couldn't figure out-- "how does this woman always know " because she'd go to the movie theater, and there would be the stalker standing there yelling and screaming at her.
00:43:00- How long did this go on?
00:43:02- This went on for a year.
00:43:05This was when we first had stalking laws.
00:43:08Nobody understood it.
00:43:10The victim went to the police over and over again, and was told, "we can't do anything " so if she attacks you and you get injured, come back and see us.
00:43:21That's ridiculous.
00:43:22That's why we changed the stalking laws where you don't need that.
00:43:25I want you to know you do not need that anymore.
00:43:28But-- - what do you need?
00:43:30You need just to feel threatened?
00:43:31- Three elements.
00:43:32You need repeated, unwanted, following or harassment two or more times.
00:43:38- That could be via email, internet-- - email, internet, ..
00:43:45They don't even have to be in the same state as long as they're making that contact.
00:43:49And there only needs to be two or more incidents.
00:43:52So repeated following harassment a credible threat.
00:43:57It can be direct or implied.
00:43:57So for example, an implied threat-- in a domestic violence case, true story, the victim gets a voicemail from her ex-husband saying "i think we should " and the police come and they go, "oh, he's trying to make it up to you.
00:44:16" no 'cause she's terrified because before they split they went to las vegas.
00:44:22He beat her up.
00:44:23And she was in the hospital for a week.
00:44:24So he's not saying, "i want to take you " - I want to do that to you again.
00:44:28- I want to do more violence to you.
00:44:31But getting back to the case with the woman stalking the other woman.
00:44:35The most bizarre thing about that was the victim starts hearing noises coming from underneath her floorboards.
00:44:40She had a crawl space-- not even a basement-- it was a c and she thought it was an animal.
00:44:46Like we would think, ..
00:44:49Hired an exterminator.
00:44:50He threw some poisoned bait under there.
00:44:52Noises kept coming.
00:44:55Banging on pipes.
00:44:56Finally it resolved in an 11-hour swat team standoff.
00:45:00The suspect had been arrested.
00:45:03She made bail.
00:45:03Nobody told the victim that she had made bail.
00:45:07So the victim was at home with her doors, windows open, feeling free.
00:45:12And there is her stalker standing in her house with a loaded gun.
00:45:1811-Hour standoff.
00:45:20They finally were able to talk the stalker out of the house.
00:45:26And then they did a search.
00:45:28In the crawl space underneath the house there was blanket, pillow, clothing items identified belonging to the stalker, dried food, and, even more importantly, the telephone switch box was down there.
00:45:41This woman had been an engineer in the army.
00:45:43And she had tapped into the phone box so she could hear everything that the victim was saying to her friends.
00:45:49Making plans to go to a movie-- that's how she knew where the victim was going to be at all times.
00:45:56- And she was there under her-- - she was living under the crawl-- - for months?
00:46:00- For months!
00:46:00For months, just listening in.
00:46:04This was her mission in life.
00:46:05- You're scaring the hell out of us.
00:46:09That's the case that made me go up to sacramento-- - and want to change the laws.
00:46:13- Because I did not want another stalking victim to be turned away by the police department saying, "well, come back after you get raped.
00:46:22Or after--" you know-- - how often-- how often do these stalkers take it to the next level and are violent or commit murder?
00:46:29Is it common?
00:46:30- It's very common-- it's more common in domestic violence cases.
00:46:35And we've seen that.
00:46:36The one case that still haunts me is where the system failed the victim.
00:46:40And her name was marie poynton.
00:46:43She was an everyday person.
00:46:46She cleaned houses for a living.
00:46:48Her husband had been abusive.
00:46:50And she finally got the courage-- because he started threatening their two sons-- to leave him.
00:46:55And she went to her sister's house and he started calling her, saying, "i'm across the street.
00:47:01You're never gonna " he called her christmas day saying, " " "good, 'cause it's " she was frightened, but she didn't go to the police.
00:47:16She didn't report it.
00:47:17 because while she was suffering all this domestic violence, she would call the police.
00:47:24And this was years ago.
00:47:25They would respond.
00:47:26They'd take him for a walk around the block " and let him go back into the house.
00:47:33So she gave up on the system.
00:47:35The reason this haunts me is if we had known about it-- because he was making the threats.
00:47:41There was the repeated conduct.
00:47:42There was a credible threat.
00:47:43He was trying to put her in fear for her safety.
00:47:46That man would have been behind bars, and not following her up a mountain road.
00:47:52He took his car.
00:47:52Crashed into her car.
00:47:55He was in disguise.
00:47:56When she stopped, he got out and hacked her to death with a fish knife.
00:48:00Leaving the two young boys behind without a mother and obviously without a father.
00:48:08This is the case that-- I don't know what else could have been done.
00:00:00About motherhood.
00:00:01We got moms in the house!
00:00:05What about the fact that some might say you need to be a little bit more discreet?
00:00:09- Well, I'm feeding my child, nothing more.
00:00:11- To the pressures of parenting.
00:00:12What's the biggest source of guilt for you guys?
00:00:13- I think the hardest thing is that isolation.
00:00:15When you have the kids and you go, "oh, I really can't leave " - it's an hour every mother can relate to.
00:00:22- Being a mom is the hardest job.
00:00:24" thank you!
00:00:44Hi! hi!
00:00:47Thank you, everybody.
00:00:48So nice to see you all. oh!
00:00:50Thank you.
00:00:51Have a seat.
00:00:53All right, we got moms in the house!
00:00:56- ( cheers ) - Thank goodness.
00:00:58Today we are exploring all the hush-hush elements of motherhood.
00:01:02The things we rarely get to discuss in public.
00:01:04We've even set up our own mommy confessional outside the studio here where our audience can open up and share about all those embarrassing things we've done as moms.
00:01:13Not me.
00:01:15- ( laughter ) - Oh my god.
00:01:16Today, I did, already countless embarrassing things.
00:01:19But one of the topics that not everybody is comfortable talking about is breast-feeding in public.
00:01:24It is a huge issue, especially here in the u.s.
00:01:27And nobody knows that more than my next guest.
00:01:30Check out crystal's story.
00:01:32- Nice. yes.
00:01:32He licked you.
00:01:35My name is crystal scott.
00:01:37I'm a proud veteran, military wife, mother of three.
00:01:41And now I'm unemployed.
00:01:44I'm an x-ray technologist.
00:01:46I was employed with schryver medical for approximately 16 months.
00:01:50That's my pretty baby.
00:01:51I'm a strong advocate for breast-feeding moms because of the difficulties that may arise with breast-feeding, and sadly, the social stigma.
00:02:01All done.
00:02:02I was let go because of my involvement with the mom2mom breast-feeding support group located on fairchild air force base.
00:02:12I met this photographer.
00:02:14And I knew that she would be able to showcase breast-feeding as normal and as beautiful as it is.
00:02:19There were military wives and air force guardsmen that participated in the photo shoot.
00:02:26And she just asked them to breast-feed as they normally do.
00:02:29The photographer posted a preview on her facebook page and her blog on sunday.
00:02:34They had gone viral on monday.
00:02:36And then within a week they were headline news all over the world.
00:02:40The photo shoot was never to gain publicity.
00:02:43It was never to be sexual or provocative.
00:02:47It was to help breast-feeding moms in our community.
00:02:53- Well, joining us exclusively in her first national television appearance is the woman at the center of this worldwide media frenzy.
00:02:59Please welcome crystal.
00:03:00- ( applause ) - Welcome!
00:03:08Welcome welcome.
00:03:09- Thank you.
00:03:09- Thank you for being here.
00:03:11And thank you for being provocative.
00:03:14I mean, I think it's incredibly brave.
00:03:16I mean, did you know that this was gonna cause all this hoopla?
00:03:20- No. absolutely not.
00:03:21This was just for our community.
00:03:22And then when it went viral, we were just, like, you know, " this really opened up eyes.
00:03:28- And so really the purpose was to raise awareness on breast-feeding.
00:03:32It was to coincide with breast-feeding awareness month.
00:03:35- Yes. correct. it did.
00:03:35- And so, in your wildest dreams-- I mean, what did you expect to happen?
00:03:40- In my wildest dreams, we want to raise awareness for breast-feeding.
00:03:44Breast-feeding is normal, and in the united states it is socially unacceptable.
00:03:49- And we want-- - in public.
00:03:50 and we want to showcase that.
00:03:54That no matter if you're a student, a full-time, um, working individual or a stay-at-home mom, that you should not be ashamed to do it.
00:04:02This is the way ..
00:04:04Brought to-- ..
00:04:05- We were built to feed our children and nourish our babies.
00:04:06- Yes. yes.
00:04:08- What is is like to breast-feed and be in the military?
00:04:11- I think in any situation where you're a full-time mom, it takes work.
00:04:15It does.
00:04:16Whether, you know, you're pumping or you have the ability to bring your baby to work, I think it's, you know, it's difficult because you don't normally-- you know, you don't normally see that.
00:04:26- And so it's really about-- I mean for me, you know, I can relate.
00:04:27It's a different thing.
00:04:29But the whole birth advocacy work that I do, it's about raising awareness, it's about education.
00:04:33- Yes.
00:04:33- It's not about telling people, "oh, you have to do this or that," but you should be empowered with the information to make a choice.
00:04:38- Absolutely.
00:04:39- Okay, so when it comes to your job and what you used to do, and how did you come to find out that you were no longer gonna be needed there?
00:04:45- Um, they came to my door, asked me for my things, and then I had to ask the question.
00:04:51And their exact response " - due to the media attention?
00:04:55- Yes.
00:04:55 and you are currently suing for wrongful termination.
00:04:58- Termination.
00:05:00- Okay, so, I mean-- - ( applause ) - Thank you.
00:05:03- It's-- it's scary stuff.
00:05:04I would imagine you did not think you'd ever be in this kind of position.
00:05:08- No.
00:05:08- But how do you feel now, on the other side of it?
00:05:11And you are dealing with these legal battles.
00:05:13I mean, I just met your beautiful son roman backstage.
00:05:16Um, is it worth it?
00:05:17- To provide justice for women, yes, absolutely.
00:05:22- ( applause ) - Um, you should not-- thank you.
00:05:26Um, it's very, very difficult for my family.
00:05:28I'm sorry, I might get emotional.
00:05:32To help women and to be terminated ..
00:05:37You should not have to go through that.
00:05:41And women should be able to breast-feed and not be punished for it.
00:05:48So I am very thankful ..
00:05:49- ( applause ) ..I'm very proud of where I came from.
00:05:52- And having said that, you also are struggling to find work?
00:05:56You're struggling make ends meet because of this.
00:05:58 there's no jobs ..
00:06:02- So would you do it all over again if you had to?
00:06:05- Absolutely. 100%.
00:06:05- ( applause ) - I know that I'm helping women.
00:06:09And that to me, is great.
00:06:10And to be punished for helping people is wrong.
00:06:14- Thank you.
00:06:14Thank you.
00:06:15Well, you know, we're gonna take a quick break.
00:06:17Coming up, we're gonna hear from the company that fired crystal and we're also gonna meet one of the breast-feeding moms in uniform who posed for this picture.
00:06:22We'll meet them next.
00:06:32I wanna just also read some of the negative comments that you got.
00:06:38( continues reading ) ..Years ago." ..."she has lost " - we are back.
00:08:59I'm talking with crystal who was fired after this photo hit the internet.
00:09:03She is sharing her story with us exclusively.
00:09:05And I am eternally grateful to you.
00:09:07Now we've reached out to schryver, the company that fired you.
00:09:09They say your firing had nothing to do with the media attention you caused.
00:09:13They also gave us a copy of their response to your complaint.
00:09:16I wanna read a portion of that complaint.
00:09:19( reading ) What do you have to say in response to that?
00:09:31- I have to say that I've never sought out media response.
00:09:40They should just be embarrassed to even write something like that.
00:09:44- ( applause ) - For a corporation to not accept the truth-- the truth will always prevail.
00:09:51And honesty is the best policy.
00:09:53So I'm sticking to my guns.
00:09:55- All right. thank you.
00:09:56Thank you.
00:09:57Well, I wanna involve one of the moms who posed for the breast-feeding photo.
00:10:01She is also here today to give her perspective.
00:10:03Please welcome terran to the show.
00:10:05- ( applause ) - Hi, terran.
00:10:09- Hi.
00:10:11- Pleasure meeting you.
00:10:11- Pleasure meeting you.
00:10:13- Thank you for being here.
00:10:14Have a seat.
00:10:15- Thank you so much.
00:10:15- Okay, so who knew, when you were in that park that day and shooting with your beautiful twins, right?
00:10:18- Yes.
00:10:20- Devon and?
00:10:21- Fredi.
00:10:21- Fredi and devon.
00:10:22- Both girls.
00:10:23- Um, did you ever think that this would cause such a huge stir?
00:10:26- No. not at all.
00:10:26I knew that it would cause some stir, because obviously I'm breast-feeding-- period.
00:10:33Not because of the uniform necessarily.
00:10:35But it did seem to, um, stir up a lot of people' feelings and emotions about breast-feeding, and specifically breast-feeding in uniform.
00:10:43- In uniform and in public.
00:10:43- And in public. yes.
00:10:45- And so-- you are no longer in the military. correct?
00:10:48- No, I am not.
00:10:48And it's completely unrelated.
00:10:50 no, i-- right right right. unrelated.
00:10:52But was it difficult for you when you were in the military to feel like you could breast-feed?
00:10:56Did you think that there was a controversy or that it was provocative then?
00:11:00When you're-- when you are in the military you do want to respect everything about it: The uniform, what people think of you.
00:11:07So there's pressure to be good and perfect in all ways.
00:11:11Um, so of course breast-feeding is one of those things.
00:11:14Just like moms who breast-feed out of the uniform, they feel like they need to be, you know, covered or just do it right, and not just blatantly.
00:11:22But the truth is when my kids are hungry, they're hungry and I'm gonna feed them, whether it be a bottle, a strawberry, my breast milk.
00:11:30 you said something about a strawberry.
00:11:32If it was a-- is that your analogy?
00:11:34- That is my analogy.
00:11:35My analogy is: If I was in that picture breast-feeding or-- it's-- or feeding my kid a strawberry instead of breast-feeding, nobody would accuse me of trying to promote-- and that's what I was accused of, promoting a product-- promoting the farmers of america association.
00:11:50Nobody would have an issue.
00:11:50But because it's my-- coming from my breast, it is an issue.
00:11:56- I wanna just also read some of the negative comments that you got on the blog.
00:11:59Where? on facebook?
00:12:01On facebook you got thousands and thousands-- okay, I'm just gonna ..
00:12:14..Years ago." I mean, it really is, like, the worst of the worst.
00:12:25- Yeah, it is.
00:12:25But, you know, it's a good thing because, you know, blacks weren't allowed in the military once.
00:12:29And once women weren't allowed in the military either.
00:12:31And somebody always has something bad to say before huge changes and huge steps are made toward something good.
00:12:36So I'm fine with it.
00:12:38- So you have no regrets?
00:12:38- No regrets.
00:12:39- All right. awesome.
00:12:39I wanna get to some of the moms in the crowd today.
00:12:43How many of you breast-fed?
00:12:46Wow! wow wow wow.
00:12:47Any-- anything people wanna add?
00:12:49Please jump up. yes!
00:12:49Stand on up. hi.
00:12:50 um, so I think it's horrible that there's a stigma against breast-feeding in public, but I do understand where some people are coming from.
00:12:58It's a very private, bonding moment, and so I think, you know, at a five-star restaurant or something-- - so you think there's a line that people-- so there's no breast-feeding allowed in a five-star restaurant but a four-star is okay?
00:13:09- No, not necessarily but I mean, um-- I don't think-- it does not need to be regu-- uh, relegated to the bathrooms or, you know, people don't need to be ashamed of it, but just covering to kind of maintain that bonding.
00:13:20Because I understand that breast-feeding a child is a very intimate moment between mother and child.
00:13:25- But that's why we're here.
00:13:25I'm sorry to interrupt.
00:13:27- Of course.
00:13:27- We're here because it shouldn't be private and it shouldn't be just bonding.
00:13:31It should be simply feeding your child.
00:13:33And if it was looked like that for everybody, and if everybody viewed it like that, then this wouldn't be an issue and we wouldn't even need to be on a show, and my breast wouldn't need to be blurred out on television.
00:13:42- I did notice that.
00:13:43- Because people show more than that in a bikini.
00:13:46And it's not just bonding.
00:13:47I'm literally giving my child sustenance.
00:13:49I'm feeding my child, nothing more.
00:13:51- Thank you for your comment.
00:13:51I appreciate it.
00:13:54Yes. hi.
00:13:54Stand up, please.
00:13:56 okay, I saw the photo and my first reaction was I was against it.
00:14:00- Mm-hmm.
00:14:01- And I'm gonna say that-- - can I ask why?
00:14:02- Well, just because, to me, breast-feeding is an intimate act.
00:14:07And I've seen women in malls and they breast-feed and-- you have to do what you have to do.
00:14:11Your baby's hungry, you have to do that and that's fine.
00:14:13But at the same time, it's an intimate act, and I've seen them with the sarongs, and, I mean, that's perfectly fine-- - so you're saying she was too exposed.
00:14:21- I think that's what it was.
00:14:21But after hearing your story, i-- I feel for you.
00:14:24You know, I was against the photo at first, and I'm still kind of against it just because of the exploitedness, but I'm 100% behind the reason of the photo.
00:14:33So I support you 100% behind that.
00:14:40- What about the fact that some might say, "you need to be a little bit more discreet"?
00:14:44- Well, I happen to have twins, as you guys saw, and you cannot breast-feed twins discreetly.
00:14:49And you can't breast-feed one baby and the other one not want the same thing.
00:14:53So you know, it's-- it's an impossibility.
00:14:55I don't-- you know, whether I'm in the military or not, like, you cannot discreetly breast-feed two babies.
00:15:01And I will feed them whenever they need to eat.
00:15:04- Fair enough.
00:15:05All right, on that note, coming up, we have our mommy confessionals.
00:15:09Our audience is gonna fess up about their deepest, darkest mommy secrets.
00:15:13Ohh. I shudder to think.
00:15:13We'll be back.
00:15:22- You're not really in love with your kids all the time.
00:15:24This is much harder than I thought.
00:15:25- ( gasps ) Did you just admit that?
00:15:27 I was just gonna say, "you do feel that way too, " sometimes you don't like your children.
00:15:31- Oh, yeah. sure.
00:15:32- And that's okay, right?
00:15:42,,,,,, know.
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00:18:08- my confession is that I had, at one point, four kids, um, in four different schools with four different activities, and when I got birthday invitations in the mail, um, I would throw them away without letting them know that they were invited to a birthday party.
00:18:24So that solved my problem.
00:18:25And I hope I didn't scar them forever and, um, make them social outcasts.
00:18:30But that's what I had to do.
00:18:31- ( laughter ) - That's awesome!
00:18:36That is-- that is awesome.
00:18:37Thank you for sharing.
00:18:38Today we've been talking about the many faces of motherhood.
00:18:42You just met a mom who is being judged for breast-feeding in uniform, but at-- are we, as moms, also guilty of judging each other?
00:18:48Oh, come on.
00:18:48How many of us have judged a women in the last 24 hours?
00:18:52Another mom?
00:18:52We can't help it.
00:18:53I know it's ..
00:18:55We've gathered a panel of moms who are pulling back the curtain and breaking the silence about the not-so-perfect side of motherhood.
00:19:01Let's meet our panel.
00:19:02Heather armstrong is one of my favorites.
00:19:04She's the founder com and is often hailed as the mother of all bloggers.
00:19:07catherine McCord is a friend of mine.
00:19:09She's the creator com, a blog dedicated to healthy, simple recipes for kids.
00:19:13Amy nobile is the co-author of "i was a really good mom " - ( laughter ) - Best title ever!
00:19:19Alicia dunham is the author " and daphne brogdon is the founder com, a humorous slant on parenting, politics and pop culture.
00:19:29Welcome moms.
00:19:30And you're all hot!
00:19:31- ( laughter ) - Okay, I'm gonna-- I'm just feeling the need to share.
00:19:36I'll give my own little mommy confessional.
00:19:38Oaky, my kids were basically gone the entire summer.
00:19:41In fact, they're still gone.
00:19:41And the truth is I don't really miss them.
00:19:44- ( laughter ) - I don't.
00:19:46- Of course you don't.
00:19:47- Is that terrible?
00:19:48I mean, I'm a newlywed, I went on my honeymoon and all that, so I'm-- I'm going to hell, but anyway.
00:19:53Um, um, amy, you interviewed over 300 moms for your book.
00:19:57What was the common thread?
00:19:58- Right, so for "i was a really good mom before I had kids," we interviewed so many moms.
00:20:01And the common thread was the bar we set for being a good mom is astronomically high.
00:20:06It's way over the top.
00:20:08Our expectations for what it means to be a good mom, they're out of whack.
00:20:11And this drive for perfection, it's gotta stop.
00:20:14I mean-- we call it the fake cupcake problem.
00:20:17Because we'll stay up till 3:00 a.m.
00:20:18Baking these perfect cupcakes for a school recital-- - well, maybe some of us.
00:20:21Not me.
00:20:21- No, not me.
00:20:22When in reality, we should just be slapping, you know, store-bought cupcakes with tin foil over it.
00:20:25It's ridiculous.
00:20:28 I mean, it's about balance.
00:20:29It's about trying to sort of manage it all.
00:20:31You can't have it all, but it's managing it the best you can.
00:20:34Do you all have anything to add? I mean, you do.
00:20:36I know, catherine, you do make those cupcakes 00 in the morning and you make them without sugar.
00:20:41And you make them without food coloring.
00:20:43- That's what weelicious is all about: easy.
00:20:45You know, it's making it easy.
00:20:46I think that we put so much pressure-- I put so much pressure on myself.
00:20:49And the biggest gift that I can give myself is to take some of that pressure away and just say, "this is what I can do, and I can do it great.
00:20:56I'm not great at that stuff.
00:20:57" - so what are you not great at?
00:21:02- I'm not great at a lot of things.
00:21:04I don't-- I mean-- I just-- I think that just being a mom is the hardest job in the entire world.
00:21:09- One of the things-- one of the misconceptions, I always thought when I had a baby, it would get easier.
00:21:13Like, each stage you get out of, it gets easier.
00:21:15It doesn't.
00:21:15I think I'm probably, not necessarily the oldest mom-- - I might be the oldest ..
00:21:18- No.
00:21:19..But I have a 15-year-old and an 11-year-old.
00:21:21And trust me, ladies, it doesn't get easier.
00:21:23- Well, it's the worst too when other moms say, "oh, it doesn't get easier, " you're like, " - well, that book, "what to expect when you're expecting," I wish they had that all the way to 18.
00:21:33Because I have one child, and every day it's like, I need to know what to expect that day.
00:21:37- And I feel like you make, you know, four steps forward and everything's great.
00:21:42And then like one huge thing happens and I feel like I go all the way back there.
00:21:46- It's true.
00:21:46We beat ourselves up.
00:21:47And we wanna achieve the unattainable.
00:21:49We think everybody else has it easier, has it all figured out, when in fact-- - but they don't.
00:21:52That's the secret.
00:21:52- We don't.
00:21:54Okay, what's the biggest source of guilt for you guys?
00:21:56- Uh, when I snap at my kids.
00:21:57When I've yelled at them to the point that they-- when I snap and there's like tears in their eyes, and, "mommy, why did " and I feel like utter crap.
00:22:04 I feel guilty all the time for letting my kids be total sloths.
00:22:08Like my favorite day is pajama day.
00:22:10But I wouldn't dare tell anybody.
00:22:12- That's good.
00:22:13- Like on a sunday, we're like-- we don't shower, we don't change.
00:22:17And it's-- my kids live for it.
00:22:18But I lie and say, you know, " "oh, we went to the park, " - ( laughter ) - "Do you see all those " - I'm not a craft person.
00:22:26- The biggest source of guilt for me is traveling.
00:22:29I think we all probably travel, because we've written books or whatever we've done.
00:22:32And i-- my mom actually made me feel really guilty one time.
00:22:36"You're traveling all the time!
00:22:36" and I actually calculated, how many days a month do I travel?
00:22:40It's 4.5 days.
00:22:41And I think that's actually good because-- - 4.5 days out of what?
00:22:44- Out of 30 days.
00:22:45 no, that's not a lot at all.
00:22:47- That's really good.
00:22:47- That's like-- we need a break.
00:22:49I mean, moms need a break.
00:22:50- Your kids should be kissing the feet that you walk on.
00:22:52You're only gone three or four and a half days a month. wow! wow!
00:22:55- You know, it's like when you say when you're a mom-- older, which I was as well-- you remember the years of being groovy.
00:23:00And I think-- - no, I'm old now.
00:23:02I wasn't old when I had them.
00:23:04- I'm just old now.
00:23:04- Oh. yeah, well, I was.
00:23:05Anyway, I think the hardest thing is that isolation.
00:23:08When you have the kids and you go, "oh, I really can't leave " I think that is the hardest part.
00:23:14- And feeling really alone.
00:23:15Feeling like no one feels the way you do, that you're not really in love with your kids all the time, that this is much harder than you thought.
00:23:20- ( gasps ) Did you just admit that?
00:23:22 I was just gonna say-- you do feel that way too, right?
00:23:25Sometimes you don't like your children.
00:23:26- Yeah. sure.
00:23:27- And that's okay, right?
00:23:28- I'm sure that my kids don't like me sometimes too.
00:23:31I mean, I'm sure it works but, you know-- and we all work, and I think that so much of that guilt comes from like being a working mother.
00:23:37But at the same time, so much of the pleasure that working mothers have is, maybe, leaving ..
00:23:44- Yes.
00:23:45- You think?
00:23:45- I have to say, being a working mom has actually, I think, made me a better mother.
00:23:49- Yeah.
00:23:50- Because I have that time away where I get to use, like, my adult brain, I get to have, like, you know-- engage with adults about things other than poop and potty training and all of that.
00:23:58And thank god I'm out of that phase.
00:24:00But we're gonna continue this discussion.
00:24:02Sit right there.
00:24:03When we come back, these moms reveal their dirty little secrets, and what they have to say may shock you.
00:24:07- We'll be right back.
00:24:08- ( applause ) - I'm still a sexual being, and you kind of lose that.
00:24:23And I feel like now that my kids are older, I'm just starting to get like, "daphne wants to get her groove back on," you know?
00:24:30- Oh my gosh!
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00:25:25,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, - I'm a single mom and full-time student whose own mother helps her out a lot with her two-year-old.
00:27:24I'll confess to occasionally lying to grandma to tell her that I have a test when instead I wanna go do something grown-up or actually go on a date.
00:27:32- Oh!
00:27:38Thank you for sharing.
00:27:39We are back, talking with some amazing moms and we're getting the down and dirty about motherhood.
00:27:43Heather, what is the worst part of motherhood for you?
00:27:46- Oh, definitely the sleep deprivation.
00:27:48It just doesn't ever ever ever go away.
00:27:50You think you'd get through one portion of the sleep training, and then the kid learns how to climb out of the crib, and then the eight-year-old's having nightmares.
00:27:59And it's just-- you will never get a good night's rest ever again.
00:28:03Unless you come to "the ricki lake show" and stay in a hotel.
00:28:05- And they don't tell you that really.
00:28:07- They do-- well, they don't tell you the extent to which you will never get sleep again. yeah.
00:28:11- Amy, what about you?
00:28:12- You know, for me it was sort of the loss of identity for a while.
00:28:15No one really tells you that you're never gonna be quite the same, that having kids changes the fabric of who you are on a lot of levels, but not great levels sometimes.
00:28:25I mean, it took a really long time for me to figure out who I was again after having kids.
00:28:30It takes work.
00:28:30No one tells you that.
00:28:31- What is the worst part of motherhood for you, alicia?
00:28:33- Oh, well, I was a single mom for seven years, and so part of that was she was the other adult in my life.
00:28:39So we slept together and she went to bed late-- 10:00, 11:00 at night.
00:28:43And so getting her to bed now that I have moved on, I have a partner now, uh-- yeah, how did you transition out of that?
00:28:50- Oh, he did it.
00:28:50He did it, because she slept with me till she was seven.
00:28:53And so we had to go back to like, when she was a baby.
00:28:55Where he had to sit his chair, read to her, and then pull the chair out, inch by inch-- - I still do that with my 11-year-old!
00:29:02- Yeah! to get out.
00:29:02 and it was so-- because I'm kinda like lazy.
00:29:04I'm a lazy mom.
00:29:06I'm gonna admit it.
00:29:06I'm a lazy mom.
00:29:07- Love it.
00:29:08- And proud of it!
00:29:08- And so he did the work because he wanted her out of the bed.
00:29:13 daphne, what about you?
00:29:15- Well, it actually dovetails that, which is sex.
00:29:16I feel like-- and I think " I think everybody tells you this.
00:29:21You don't know it.
00:29:21You don't really take it in.
00:29:22And for me it's I'm still a sexual being.
00:29:24And you kind of lose that.
00:29:26And I feel like now that my kids are older, I'm just starting to get like "daphne wants to get her groove back on," you know?
00:29:31And I say to anybody who's gonna have a kid, get lasered, man.
00:29:33'Cause you don't have time to do the maintenance later.
00:29:37- Ricki: Oh my gosh.
00:29:37- And it makes you feel bad.
00:29:41You don't.
00:29:42- So that's your one regret?
00:29:43All right, you know what?
00:29:44I wanna get someone else in the conversation.
00:29:45Joining us via skype from toronto is one of our friends of ricki, multiple mayhem mama, samantha kemp-jackson.
00:29:51Hi, samantha.
00:29:51Have you been listening?
00:29:53- Hi, I've been listening, yep.
00:29:55- All right, what do you have to add?
00:29:57What's it like for you being mom?
00:29:59Up there in canada, eh?
00:30:00- It's crazy.
00:30:00I've got four kids.
00:30:02My oldest is an adult, but my three youngest-- I've got two identical twin boys and I've got an eight-year-old.
00:30:07And it's absolutely crazy.
00:30:08It's insane.
00:30:09And I agree with all the women on the panel that you know what?
00:30:12You just-- it's just a work-in-progress.
00:30:15It's a work-in-progress.
00:30:16No one ever tells you that.
00:30:17- So you have little ones?
00:30:17You have twins that are how old?
00:30:19- They're three years old and they're identical boys.
00:30:22And yes, boys and girls are so different.
00:30:24- And you have a grown daughter I know. so you did all right.
00:30:27On the other end, they came out okay?
00:30:28- They came out okay, but that's not to say there weren't some hiccups along the way.
00:30:33And that's not what people tell you, you know?
00:30:35They say it's so perfect and then when you're actually in the thick of things, it's really really difficult.
00:30:40- All right, thank you.
00:30:40Do you have a dirty little secret that you can share with us, panel?
00:30:44- Yes. alicia does.
00:30:44- Sure.
00:30:45Not so long ago I was screaming at my kids for the bedtime.
00:30:49The bedtime ritual's awful.
00:30:50Each screaming and screaming.
00:30:52And one night I was screaming at them to brush their teeth.
00:30:55And I literally burst a blood vessel in my eye and it was horrifying.
00:30:58Before all of our eyes, they-- my kids saw my eye turn red.
00:31:01- Did they brush their teeth?
00:31:05- A horror show.
00:31:05- ( laughter ) - All right, come on, alicia.
00:31:07What's your dirty little secret? share.
00:31:10- Well, I said I was a single mom and times were tough.
00:31:13And there was months that I didn't have, uh-- uh-- medical insurance, yeah, that was it.
00:31:18And i, um-- my friend is a nurse.
00:31:21And she actually gave my daughter stitches on her kitchen table.
00:31:25- Oh my god.
00:31:25- Yes.
00:31:26- To avoid having to pay that emergency room bill.
00:31:27- It was all good.
00:31:29- And finally, daphne, I know you're not groomed, but what else can you reveal?
00:31:32- I've recently started laser treatments.
00:31:35Um, yeah, no, I would say it's a lot of that same stuff.
00:31:38But it's-- the other day the babysitter had shown up.
00:31:42I was gonna go out, but she was doing whatever.
00:31:44Anyway, my son was in full-on tantrum and I had just had it.
00:31:46And I looked right at her and I said "i'm outsourcing " and I went upstairs and I just-- I couldn't deal with it.
00:31:52And I was like-- - we've all been there and done that.
00:31:54I want to thank our panel for being here.
00:31:56How about a hand for these moms?
00:31:57I appreciate the honesty.
00:31:58Coming up next, we'll meet a woman who admits that she hates being a mom.
00:32:03Oh boy.
00:32:03That story is next.
00:32:13- My kids deserve better.
00:32:16How-- what-- I'm a terrible mom.
00:32:18- ( crying ) - If I would have seen the future, I probably would have never had kids.
00:32:25- ( baby squalling ) wipes, with all new triple clean layers, can handle anything, we tried them on triple the mess.
00:32:51A mealtime meltdown.
00:32:54Oh, that was me guys.
00:32:56A stinky surprise.
00:32:58And a finger painting free-for-all.
00:33:00(Baby laughing) there's one baby getting clean.
00:33:04Two and three.
00:33:05How's that for a triple clean.
00:33:07(Baby laughing) ..
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00:34:00,,,,,,,,,,,, - I'm a stay-at-home mom of two girls and since my oldest is four, I sometimes put her to bed about an hour earlier than she normally would because she can't tell time and she has no clue why she's going to bed that early.
00:35:39- Ricki: Oh boy.
00:35:41Welcome back.
00:35:41Sometimes being a mom isn't all it's cracked up to be.
00:35:45Ally says she's contemplated divorce just to get time away from her kids.
00:35:49Her husband jamie says she is completely lost in motherhood.
00:35:53Take a look.
00:35:53- All my life I had a plan to find a perfect man, start a family.
00:35:58And when I met james, I knew that he was the right man for me.
00:36:04We lived together before we started a family.
00:36:07Our life was very exciting.
00:36:08We did whatever we wanted however we wanted whenever we wanted.
00:36:13When I got pregnant, it was beautiful.
00:36:15We were just so happy.
00:36:16I read every book out there.
00:36:20I thought my plan was going great.
00:36:22When olivia was four months old, I got pregnant again.
00:36:26And this was not in my plans.
00:36:28- ( crying ) - I feel like I'm drowning.
00:36:32I'm having really bad thoughts of looking back and what was I thinking?
00:36:37- ( wailing ) - ( speaks to child ) - A typical working day we're up 00 in the morning, and we're up because one of the two children are crying.
00:36:4900, 7:15 to work.
00:36:53- Bye, baby.
00:36:54- I get out of work at 4:00.
00:36:57When I walk in the door, the moment I walk in this is my second job that I don't get paid for.
00:37:02I don't even get a break to change my shoes.
00:37:06I notice with the stress, I'm reacting to my children differently.
00:37:10I'm yelling at them.
00:37:11I'm screaming at them for no reason.
00:37:13- Do not throw that on the floor.
00:37:14That's not for throwing.
00:37:16- I'm very scared.
00:37:16I haven't found time for myself.
00:37:20I haven't found time to give to my husband.
00:37:22We haven't found time for each other.
00:37:25- James: Ally's very overwhelmed at this point.
00:37:27I see this glazed look in her eyes sometimes.
00:37:30That's not normal.
00:37:30- I've lost love for my husband.
00:37:34I've lost love for my kids.
00:37:38- ( children crying ) - Sometimes I'm hearing them cry and I wonder if we get a divorce will I have the weekends to myself?
00:37:47- ( squalling ) - People get divorced over things like this.
00:37:51- ( screams continue ) - My marriage is falling apart because we have kids.
00:37:55I'm not seeing the precious things in my children.
00:37:59I'm not having fun with them.
00:37:59My kids deserve better.
00:38:03How-- what-- I'm a terrible mom.
00:38:06- ( crying ) - If I would have seen the future, I probably would have never had kids.
00:38:13- ( baby squalling ) - Wow, shocking admission, but I appreciate you coming here, because I think a lot of us can relate to having moments like that.
00:38:24How bad is it on a scale of one to ten?
00:38:27- Um, ten.
00:38:27If it could go higher, it would.
00:38:29- So it's gotten to the point where you can't-- you-- you're not functioning.
00:38:31- Yes.
00:38:32We-- and also we don't have that nanny that comes in.
00:38:35We don't have grandma that comes in on sundays and tells us go out " - we don't have any of that.
00:38:41- We rarely get the outside support.
00:38:44- You need a relief.
00:38:44You need time to get away and miss your kids.
00:38:48- Yes, thank you.
00:38:49I don't see-- I never have heard myself say, "oh, I can't wait " and I have to say, 45 and I have to-- I sit in my car for 30 minutes.
00:39:03And I told my husband, " because that's-- that's me.
00:39:06- Your "me" time.
00:39:09- That's my "me" time in my car listening to the radio, not having someone kicking the back of my seat crying, yelling.
00:39:17- So you say your two-year-old is just running your life.
00:39:20- Yes, she is.
00:39:22She is, she definitely is.
00:39:2300 in the morning when they're both crying or one wakes up the other, is when I'm thinking, okay.
00:39:29If we were divorced, he would have them on the weekend and I would have saturday and sunday.
00:39:34How sad is that, that I've come to that point of thinking-- - it's come to survival skills.
00:39:38- It is exhausting.
00:39:39There's no question.
00:39:40You're at the worst kind of phase.
00:39:40I mean, they're babies and they're in diapers.
00:39:43You've got two in diapers.
00:39:44- Yes.
00:39:45- Panel, can you please-- can you relate, catherine?
00:39:47- I mean I literally-- I was tearing up watching that.
00:39:49Because I think that is the way that a lot of women feel no matter what because they're screaming, there's just nothing you can do.
00:39:56There's no reasoning.
00:39:57That's the hardest part.
00:39:59If you could just be like, "could we sit down and talk for a second?
00:40:01" - and there's no end in sight.
00:40:03- There's no end.
00:40:04- And what you saw was real.
00:40:06I come in and "here you go.
00:40:07" I don't even have time to take off my shoes.
00:40:09" - and even in downtime there's always chores and things to do-- dishes, laundry, whatever it is.
00:40:18It's non-stop.
00:40:19Even if the kids aren't at you there's things to do.
00:40:21- And you admit that you're not very nice to your husband?
00:40:23- Of cour-- no!
00:40:25When I found out-- when my daughter was only four months old I found out I was pregnant again.
00:40:30And yes, I threw a shoe at him.
00:40:33- ( laughter ) - My big stiletto shoes that I used to wear a long time ago-- not anymore.
00:40:39 I think he still has a scar right in his eye.
00:40:41- Okay, but you know that it takes two to get in that situation, right?
00:40:45- No! no.
00:40:47It was his birthday and what woman-- - ( laughing ) - What woman, after having a four-month, not sleeping for eight hours, " - he wanted his birthday present.
00:40:59- I-- I don't remember.
00:41:01- I have to say that the divorce thing-- not that I'm advocating divorce-- but I have to say there was a time for me when we did get-- we were getting along in this divorce but I had guilt-free time to myself.
00:41:12You know, I knew they were safe.
00:41:13They were with their father.
00:41:15Every wednesday night is a sacred time for me and my husband now because wednesday nights they're with their dad.
00:41:20So I can relate to that comment.
00:41:21I'm not saying you should get divorced.
00:41:23I think there's hope for in fact we are going to do some things to help you.
00:41:27- Thank you.
00:41:27- Coming up next, ally is desperately in need of help so we sent our expert to the rescue with some top tips for surviving motherhood.
00:41:34That and much more after this.
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00:45:04- I'm a mom of two and my confession is I was in a hurry one morning and I got everybody in the car, started to drive away and my three-year-old yells, " whoops.
00:45:14- ( laughter ) - Oh, been there, done that a dozen times.
00:45:20All right, we're back.
00:45:20Ally and jamie are overwhelmed with a capital "o" by parenthood.
00:45:25So mom strategist mia redrick made a house call to give them some practical solutions.
00:45:28Take a look and see how it went.
00:45:32- ( doorbell chimes ) - Ally: Hi.
00:45:34- Hi.
00:45:34- Hi mia. I'm ally.
00:45:35- What do you miss most about your life?
00:45:38- Oh my gosh.
00:45:38Being with my husband.
00:45:39- Do you all date at all?
00:45:40- Ally: Date? what's that?
00:45:42- James: No date night.
00:45:43- And then what about in terms of family time?
00:45:46- James: We try to connect at dinner and stuff, but it ends up usually being pretty chaotic.
00:45:50- I've got some great ideas that are gonna help you.
00:45:52And we're gonna have some fun today.
00:45:54Families that play together stay together.
00:45:57One of the things that works really well for families is something called "dear" time.
00:46:01And it means drop everything and read.
00:46:02- You want me to read you the number book?
00:46:04- What I like about doing something as simple as playing a ball-- you want to keep what your doing with your kids really simple and that way you have to play together.
00:46:12- All right.
00:46:12- Ally: Come on, olivia!
00:46:13- Can I have your blankie?
00:46:14- Come play ball with mom.
00:46:15- Good job.
00:46:15- One of the things that I would recommend for you guys to do is change your routine.
00:46:20You plan your meals in advance so that you don't get home and you feel like, "oh my god, my kids aren't eating healthy" because that's important to you.
00:46:28Right you're not going to go out to date. you're gonna date in.
00:46:30So what we want to focus on is getting you guys to reconnect.
00:46:34All right, so we've got a little music.
00:46:35See what it feels like just to touch one another again and dancing.
00:46:41- ( Ally laughs ) I miss you.
00:46:46I forget how we-- this is how we feel.
00:46:49This is how we feel and we don't say it enough.
00:46:54Thank you, mia.
00:46:54Thank you for coming.
00:46:54- Thank you.
00:46:57 well, welcome the author of "time for mom-me, 365 daily strategies for a mother's self-care," mia redrick.
00:47:04Mia, thank you so much.
00:47:04Stand up, please.
00:47:07Pleasure, pleasure.
00:47:09I really feel for this family.
00:47:11You really-- you did help them with some tips, but what can we all take away from this?
00:47:15- "Dear" time is such a simple way to build quality in your family time and to make self-care a reality every single day.
00:47:22- It's simple.
00:47:22- So drop everything and read.
00:47:24- Drop everything and read.
00:47:25It will allow the kids to see mom and dad having some downtime and it becomes part of the family culture.
00:47:31- So what about the fact that she has no time to herself?
00:47:34She sits in her car and listens to the radio and lies to her husband about where she is just so she can have a moment to breathe.
00:47:40- So what we talked about was them giving one another permission, without guilt, and supporting that time.
00:47:48And understanding you need that when you have two young children.
00:47:51They're a couple that wants to be together.
00:47:53They don't want to be apart.
00:47:54And so you could see that when they started to date-- just to dance together-- they reconnected immediately.
00:47:58- I saw you covering your ears when that was happening.
00:48:01- Why?
00:48:02- It's emotional.
00:48:04- Yes yes, it is because I love my husband and we all forget why we got married.
00:48:08And now I'm thinking about divorcing because I don't want to see my kids for two days?
00:48:13Yes, it is sad.
00:48:14It's very sad.
00:48:16 we-- we spent seven years together and did whatever we wanted however we wanted.
00:48:22And now out of nowhere I have this two-year-old telling me "uh-huh.
00:48:24" - she is raining on your parade, isn't she?
00:48:29- Yes.
00:48:29- Do you feel like there's more hope? there's some hope here?
00:48:32We are gonna give you some tips and we have little surprises for you later.
00:48:35- Okay? so thank you.
00:48:35- Oh, thank you.
00:48:36- I do believe you're gonna feel better after the hour.
00:48:39Thank you, mia.
00:48:39Thank you so much.
00:48:41So our friends at spafinder wellness, are giving you a $500 gift certificate for some mommy self-care, ally.
00:48:48- Nice!
00:48:50- And also-- that's not it.
00:48:51That's not it!
00:48:53 nannies is also giving you 60 hours of babysitting.
00:48:56- ( gasps ) - So that you and jamie can have some alone time.
00:49:00- Wow.
00:49:00- Oh my god.
00:49:01- Like you won lotto, right?
00:49:03Oh, and, audience, we haven't forgot about you either.
00:49:06You're all going home with a year's subscription of mia's mom academy.
00:49:10Enjoy enjoy.
00:49:10Thank you.
00:49:11When we come back, the hottest tech gadgets moms cannot live without.
00:49:17You don't want to miss this.
00:49:19- ( mouths ) - Want to get in the best shape of your life?
00:49:36Join us for a challenge